you got kibitzed

[han]

I just kibitzed some random table on BBO and west had this hand:

 

AJxxxx

x

xx

Axxx.

 

With EW vulnerable, the bidding went (1H) - 2C - (2H) to him or her and west bid 2S.

 

Question 1. Is 2S forcing for you?

 

Question 2. What does 3S mean for you?

 

Question 3. What is your call?

[Guest Jlall]

1) no

 

2) fit

 

3) well, if I could use 2 there would be no problem so assuming 2 was not fit or undiscussed I would bid 4H and give up on spades while maximizing my chances of reaching slam. Other options include bidding 2S expecting to get by with it not going all pass and maximizing our chances to get to spades or 3H to be followed by bidding spades trying to show a hand with a club fit and spades.

[awm]

1) Yes, forcing.

 

2) Fit-showing.

 

3) Prefer 2♠ on this particular hand, because of the extra spade card and the nature of the spade suit (3♠ usually shows a suit that will play poorly opposite singleton and well opposite 2-3 small, like KQxxx).

[pclayton]

1. I play a 2 over 2 forcing.

 

2. Definitely fit.

 

3. I think this is an acceptable hand for a fit jump. I don't like the 6th spade and the 2 aces for the call, but its within limits.

[Halo]

1. Yes

 

2. Better spades and some fit.

 

3. 2S

[Apollo81]

1. NFConst

2. Forcing

3. Probably 4♥ like Justin said.

[han]

Interesting, I thought almost everybody would play 2S as NF, as in most auctions that go (bid)-bid-(bid)-bid.

 

Playing 2S as NF and 3S as fit would make 3S a clear choice I thought.

[Finch]

1. Non-forcing constructive (I play 1H - 2C - P - 2S as forcing, but when everyone is bidding they are non-forcing).

 

2. Fit.

 

1 + 2 = I am not allowed to hold a forcing spade single-suiter without a club fit. If I happen to have been dealt one, I have to do one of i) bid 4S, to play; ii) make a take-out double and bid spades next round.

 

As I haven't yet been dealt a forcing spade single-suiter without a club fit, that wasn't happy bidding 4S, I don't see this as a major problem.

 

3. If I don't want to risk 3S, I would cue hearts to show a club fit, then bid spades.

[uday]

the problem w/a fit jump is that you take up so much room that you want P to know whether the hands fit well or not after the fit jump :)

 

AJxxxx

x

xx

Axxx

 

or

 

KQJxx

xx

xx

Axxx

 

 

vs

 

xx

Axx

xxx

KQxxxx

 

x

Axx

xxx

KQxxxx

 

P won't be able to sort out whether the stiff spade is good/bad.

 

It makes sense for a fit to allow P to act more intelligently; thus the fit jump itself needs to be defined well enough to allow P to do that. Anything-goes fit jumps don't do that. What exactly the fit shows is better left to each partnership ( I like to play them as single-raise strength, not more, with suit that does not want shortness across the table ).

 

Given the problem constraints, it feels like only a splinter does justice to the hand. While it put the spades on the shelf, P won't be surprised to find 4 trump, a singleton, and some controls -- that describes this hand nicely in terms of a high level club contract.

[awm]

Hmm... people pretty much raise on air these days. I'm not convinced that in the auction:

 

1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥

 

the 2♥ bid necessarily shows any values, or that the chance of our having game is any less than it would be if responder had passed instead of bidding 2♥. In fact, we might be more likely to have game given the 2♥ bid because of the increased odds of a fit our way.

 

I'm pretty sure that 1♥ - 2♣ - P - 2♠ and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ should be the same for this reason, in respect to their degree of forcing-ness. On several occasions I've seen auctions like this one where I (in fourth chair) have the best hand at the table (with or without a club fit).

 

Personally I prefer new suit responses to overcalls at the two-level and above to be forcing. The situation seems analogous to free bids in competition, since partner has shown something resembling full opening values. Certainly there are some good players who use negative free bids, so playing "NF Constructive" is not ridiculous, but like many folks I prefer increased accuracy on game/slam auctions over the ability to stop on a dime in the best partscore. Given what people open and raise on, I'm not convinced that the opponents calls here should make me change my methods.

[jtfanclub]

I'm pretty sure that 1♥ - 2♣ - P - 2♠ and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ should be the same for this reason, in respect to their degree of forcing-ness. On several occasions I've seen auctions like this one where I (in fourth chair) have the best hand at the table (with or without a club fit).

If you don't play special doubles here, why not have the X by an unpassed hand show opening count? Now a new suit is just non-forcing constructive.

[awm]

I'm pretty sure that 1♥ - 2♣ - P - 2♠ and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ should be the same for this reason, in respect to their degree of forcing-ness. On several occasions I've seen auctions like this one where I (in fourth chair) have the best hand at the table (with or without a club fit).

If you don't play special doubles here, why not have the X by an unpassed hand show opening count? Now a new suit is just non-forcing constructive.

It's pretty normal for double here to show the other two suits. While I suppose you could call this a "special double" this type of responsive double is very close to standard at the two-level.

 

I also think a double to show "opening count" is a terrible method. How is partner supposed to know what to do over such a double? It's basically just "blame transfer."

[jtfanclub]

I also think a double to show "opening count" is a terrible method. How is partner supposed to know what to do over such a double? It's basically just "blame transfer."

The assumption is that overcaller either has a minimum with a good suit, or opening count himself. With the former, he rebids his his suit, which may end the auction. With the latter, he bids something else, which makes the auction game forcing. If you need room to explore for slam, you can use Lebensohl, but if you're down at my level you just find your fit & stoppers & bid game.

 

The disadvantage is that you don't have a good bid for both remaining suits and not enough strength to force. The advantage is that you now have a good bid for one suit and not enough to force.

[kenrexford]

"Special Doubles" Oh boy!

 

I now play with some partners the following "special doubles" technique, in a bid-bid-bid scenario:

 

If bid-bid-bid takes away the two-level cue but does not preempt us out of a two-level contract in our suit, then double is a cue. E.g., 1♦-1♠-2♥-X as a replacement for 1♦-1♠-P-2♦.

 

If bid-bid-bid takes away our ability to play at the two-level, then 2NT replaces the cue if a three-cue would be too high to stop at the three-level. E.g., 1♥-2♦-2♠-2NT as a substitute for 1♥-2♦-P-2♥.

 

If bid-bid-bid does not take away our ability to play at the two-level and does not take away our ability to cue, then the double (or redouble) is reverse Rosenkranz.

 

If bid-bid-bid makes 2NT the "cue", then the double is Snapdragon and not Reverse Rosenkranz.

 

If bid-bid-bid takes away our ability to declare at the two-level but allows us to cue at the three-level under our agreed suit, then the double is snapdragon, the cue is a limix with four pieces (unbalanced game try), and 2NT is the cue.

 

 

 

 

I think.

[han]

Those actually sound like good agreements but too memory-intensive for my taste.

 

I used to play the double as a transfer in cases where the cuebid was not available. For example over (1C)-1S-(2D), the double showed hearts and 2H was a good spade raise. I gave this up though, I think I'm not playing enough bridge for such agreements to have a positive effect on my results.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 No

#2 Fit Jump

#3 3S

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

1) no

2) fit

3) 2 spades do not expect it to go pass pass pass

If I can just get past this round. :D

[Impact]

1) no but it would show C (see below)

2) Fit

3) 3S

 

Note many years ago Jeff Rubens suggested that a double of a single raise after an overcall should be a substitute cue bid ("the cue-bid double"). Not only do I agree with Rubens but it is an excellent idea - and markedly superior to the "I have values - choose between the other 2 suits" double that so many use.

 

If you only use that - you are way ahead.

 

If you combine that idea (cue-bid double) with using transfer advances, you are in the position that the double would show S, and a 2S bid shows C......which is where I came in.

 

With respect to Ken, this set of agreements is both simpler and (perhaps) superior than that which he proposes.

 

The arguments that I see against the use of fit-jumps or to limit them to a narrower set of hands is always fine if you are dealt the perfect hand for the specified use -but otherwise you place yourself at a disadvantage in a competitive bidding set-up. Whenever you hold shortage in their suit in the modern game you can anticipate additional competition and it is wise to let partner know what is going on (do you really want the auction to go 4H from opener over your 2S and now you have to commit to 5C without having indicated support).

 

THe only argument is that when your suit is headed by only the A you will be quite happy if partner cannot support you, but when you hold the 2 A in the black suits partner will be unwilling to venture to the higher levels almost regardless of his holdings...

 

Compare this with the auction on which Hannie & Arend eschewed a fit-jump with void Txx AJxxx Axxxx after 1H (2S) ?

 

Here, you hold the 4th supporting card and only one suit.....if you play fit-jumps and later support C having bid a non-forcing (or forcing) 2S, overcaller is entitled to make certain assumptions about the quality of your support or alternatively your holding in the unbid suit depending upon agreement. eg to flog a very dead horse, you might have bid round the clock the void Txx AJxxx Axxxx on the ground that a FSJ is misleading as to quality while support was insufficient....but to eschew the fit-jump with this hand allows of no such obvious sensible inference...

 

regards

[helene_t]

Interesting, I thought almost everybody would play 2S as NF, as in most auctions that go (bid)-bid-(bid)-bid.

 

Playing 2S as NF and 3S as fit would make 3S a clear choice I thought.

Yes, that was my expectation as well. Apparently this is something to discuss with p.

[Fluffy]

I would only take it as fit jump if I had passed before. 3♠ here would show only spades for me.