irrispective of if it makes or not

[sceptic]

No Prizes for guessing what seat I am in

 

how bad would you rate 2 club bid

 

[hv=d=w&v=a&w=st8543h974d8cqt93&e=saqhjt2daj43ck764]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♥    Dbl   Pass

 1♠    1NT   Pass  Pass

 2♣    Pass  2♠    Pass

 Pass  Pass  

[goodwintr]

2C wasn't nearly as bad as a couple of East's actions -- it was a little pushy, that's all, and offered to compete in the "wrong" suit. Perhaps West should have just passed and got on to the next deal. The opponents had settled in a low partscore, so there was some justification for believing that 2C would come to no harm. East's double of one heart, with only two spades, is technically wrong: it is no crime to pass, even with 15 HCP, when no positive action is suitable. And as the bidding went, there was no merit to the conversion back to spades from clubs: East should have expected West to have four spades and five clubs, not the other way around, because with five spades, West would usually balance via 2S, not 2C.

[P_Marlowe]

2C was fine, 2S well ...

Dont get me started to comment on the double.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Badmonster]

I find offshape doubles terribly disconcerting. Not so much when we buy the contract, but when we defend. I start wondering things like, how come there are 16 hearts on this deal and only 9 spades? It also makes me wonder, doesn't p trust me to balance?

[kenrexford]

East is on drugs.

 

Let's go through the bidding:

 

1♥-X. Unless I have agreed to play that 1NT is a specific range takeout (light, strong takeout, whatever) and that you double with balanced 15-17 hands, I don't get this. Pass seems standout, although my preference would be to overcall 1NT and show my points and shape. (I have tools, however, to find out about the heart control as Responder.*)

 

1♥-X-P-1♠. No problem.

 

1♥-X-P-1♠-

1NT-P. No problem, really. The only comment of note here is that, if an initial 1NT would have been a takeout call, then it makes sense to play support doubles here, strangely. 2♠ would show four spades. X would show a 15-17 count with three spades. Pass would show either a 15-17 count with only two spades OR the lowest gap holding (not suitable for a 1NT takeout bid) with 2-3 spades (if double could be a light takeout). Thus, the pass might be the "right call," or it could just be a pass to be passing after initial silliness.

 

1♥-X-P-1♠-

1NT-P-P-2♣. Unless the "X or 1NT" structure is strange (1NT as a takeout), I don't like 2♣. This sounds like 5♣/4♠, IMO. I might rebid 2♠, however, unless, again, the pass of 1NT had support double implications because of an unusual takeout structure. In that case, 2♣ could probably be the pattern held.

 

1♥-X-P-1♠-

1NT-P-P-2♣-

P-2♠. This one boggles my mind. I understand matchpoint thinking, but...

 

[*Tools for overcalling 1NT immediately. With no interest in spades, but game interest in 3NT, Responder "transfers" to hearts. If I hold a maximum, I bid 3NT with two stoppers, 3♥ with one stopper, or a natural suit with no stoppers. With a minimum, I bid 2NT with one or two stoppers or "accept the transfer" by bidding 2♥ with no stoppers. Partner can scramble naturally after the 2♥ call, or cue to force a call. Partner can re-check after 2NT to see if I have a double stop. If partner has interest in spades, he can bid 2♣ (Stayman). If I have spades, I'll bid 2♠. If I do not, I'll bid 2♦, and then partner can bid 2♥. There are other options, as well. But, that's a sampling.]

[sceptic]

ok some more thoughts from me on this hand

 

1/. THE double (I assumed it was a normal take out x) so I proceeded as I would normally do (trusting pards bid)

 

2/. surely the x asks bid your best suit (surely if I had 4 spades and 5 clubs) would I not bid 2 clubs intsead of 1 spade (even with zero points) or even just bid 1nt myself if I had a balanced hand

 

3/. my 2 club bid (opps had shown that 1NT in this sequence is 18-19 HCP) ?, so I did not think that under any circumstances would we be battling for game

 

4/. I bid 2 clubs with an absolute crap HCP hand waiting for pard to pass or take preference to 2 spades (I liked pards 2 spade bid)

[Winstonm]

The 2C bid is not only fine but should be near automatic. You have limited the hand by bidding a mere 1S the first time. Doubler has limited his hand by passing the 1N bid. You have no reason to believe 1N will be defeated, especially with a spade lead, and your shape suggests it safe to play at the 2 level. The 2C bid in competition does not show any extras, other than useful shape.

 

The original takeout double was awful.

[neilkaz]

With Ken's tools, and I am certain he has tools to for the partnership to run to 2 of the better minor if 1NT is whacked, one can overcall 1NT, but lacking some way to find out if ♥ is really stopped, you are gambling 1NT on a bare min anyhow. So 1NT is out for many partnerships. Now for the take out double with only 2♠..yuck !

 

The 2♣ bid seems fine to me at MP's but PD should pass all day long with 4 card support and only 2♠. The partnership is lucky the 2♠ didn't result in a doubled 4-2 fit !

 

2♠...LOL was east sober ? .. neilkaz ..

[ralph23]

my 2 club bid (opps had shown that 1NT in this sequence is 18-19 HCP) ?, so I did not think that under any circumstances would we be battling for game

 

4/. I bid 2 clubs with an absolute crap HCP hand waiting for pard to pass or take preference to 2 spades (I liked pards 2 spade bid)

>> surely the x asks bid your best suit

Well, yes, but you must also use your judgment as to what "best" means here. Remember that the X is major suit oriented.

 

>>(surely if I had 4 spades and 5 clubs) would I not bid 2 clubs intsead of 1 spade (even with zero points)

No, I think many of us would elect 1♠ in this situation. Suit quality might make a difference but spade suit is important.

 

>>or even just bid 1nt myself if I had a balanced hand

You won't do this without some points (e.g. at least 7) and a stopper in the opp's suit, and you won't have 4 ♠ when you do it.

 

I think 2♣ was reasonable, if imaginative :P . Clearly your side can't be trying for a game, as you only bid 1♠ in response to the double.

 

Partner had implied support for ♣ when he doubled. Why he bid 2♠ here, I can't imagine.... he has 4 clubs, didn't he notice???

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

(I liked pards 2 spade bid)

Do you still like the 2S bid, if your

black suits are reversed?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[sceptic]

the wont be the way I bid :P cos I would not do it with out the 5th spade

[cherdano]

I would never double with this - if you do, you are really playing a non-mainstream style for double, which need not be wrong, but which partner has to take into account. 2♠ can't be right.

[Guest Jlall]

Hi, it seems intuitive to bid 2C but if you bid you must bid 2S with this hand.

 

It is common expert practice that 2C in your sequence or a sequence like it shows longer or equal CLUBS, and with 5-4 you just rebid the major. This means with 3-3 in the blacks partner is going to pass 2C. This is because people will almost always bid a 4 card major in response to a t/o X over a 5 card minor, and partner will always have 3 of the major (barring a very strong hand) so you will always get to an 8 card fit by rebidding your major.

 

edit: just read kens post and I said the exact same thing as him, go figure :P

[pclayton]

The initial double is horrible and shows a lack of basic skills. 2S is just as bad.

 

Agre with Justin that 2C tends to show 4-5 or even 4-6.

 

The only way East's bidding makes sense however is he had a club in with his spades: AQx JTx AJxx Kxx. I know its tough to mis-sort your hand online, buts the only thing that makes sense. :P

[kenrexford]

With Ken's tools, and I am certain he has tools to for the partnership to run to 2 of the better minor if 1NT is whacked, one can overcall 1NT...

Nothing all that special. Responder redoubles to transfer to a minor. Pass allows Opener to pick a minor if he wants or to redouble for Responder to pick a minor. Not always in the "right" minor, but the opponents don't always know that either. Just does not seem to come up all that often.

[mike777]

Do the Italians pass with the East hand?

 

If so, then what does an offshape takeout double by them look like?

[ArtK78]

If you play that the double shows power but doesn't show classic shape (i.e., shortiness in hearts, support for the other three suits) then double is fine.

 

Otherwise, it is sick.

 

West's 2C bid is poor. I would always bid 2S.

 

The 2S bid by East is even more sick than the original double.

[helene_t]

Opps could be cold for 3N if RHO is some self-rated expert who thinks that 1N shows 12-14.

 

If RHO can be trusted to have less than invitational values opposite 18-19, I would bid 2♠. 2♣ pretty much denies a 5-card spades. It doen't matter much, though, if p passes 2♣ he rates to have 4 clubs and 3 spades. So 2♠ only wins when p is 3253.

 

Edit: just saw that Justin just saw that Ken wrote the same.