6-4 minors matchpoint problem

[mikegill]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sxxhxdakt98xcaqjx]133|100|Scoring: MP

P P 1♦ 1♥

1N 2♥ ?[/hv]

 

You don't have any conventional agreements about this auction.

[Echognome]

3♣ for me. This is a fairly pure two suited hand.

[whereagles]

3♣, and willing to go to 5m if necessary ;)

[hrothgar]

I have two Spades and partner couldn't find a negative double.

 

Looks like they have a double fit in the majors and we have a double fit in the minors. To me, the big question is whats the best way to make sure that they don't end up declaring 4M (or defending 5mX)

 

3NT is looking mighty tempting... (Wish I knew whether partner has a position Heart stopper. I won't be happy if they open lead a Spade and punch a Heart through partners Kxxx).

2♠ might also work, as could pass.

 

Make me down for

 

4♦ 10% of the time

3N 25% of the time

3♦ 15% of the time

3♣ 30% of the time

2♠ 10% of the time

Pass 10% of the time

 

All values are approximate and might even add to 100%

[Halo]

3C

 

I'm competing.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

Double shows the minors with 4 clubs. A three club bid should show 5 clubs.

 

Why are we worried about this hand 'if' we have no agreements?

 

Play Good Bad 2NT* and your bidding will inprove.

 

Playing with random partners, good results are often random.

 

Regards,

Robert

[Apollo81]

Most of you are forgetting that we could easily be cold for game this hand, and even if we are not, the opening lead will give it to us a lot of the time.

 

I think that if it were red IMPs then this is a fairly automatic 2NT bid since that is our only way to guarantee a good hand. I don't relish playing in 2NT if partner passes, but you gotta do what you gotta to to get the 600.

 

Since this is MPs, it's less clear what to do.

[pbleighton]

3C.

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

3D.

 

3C should show 5-5.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

3♣, shows a good hand.

[helene_t]

3♣ 100% of the time. Not approximative but it does add up to 100% B)

[Robert]

Hi Apollo81

 

I like to play Good Bad 2NT so both my 3C and 3D bids would show a good hand here.

 

Does partner think that a 2NT bid 'wthout prior agreement' would be the bid made by someone holding 14HCP and 6-4 in the minors?

 

Isn't partner going to double the other pair at a higher level after you show a good hand with a 2NT bid. The 6-4 minors with 14HCP might be a big disappointment.

 

Regards,

Robert

[mikegill]

I don't see where 3♣ can show either 5-5 or a good hand. You just can't sit and wait around for 5-5 shape or a good hand to bid at matchpoints over their 2 of a major. Are people seriously going to pass with Kxx x KQTxx AJ9x over 2h in this auction? Partner probably has a flat hand with length in hearts and he's going to pass it out, and that's not going to get you a good score.

 

And I understand that good-bad 2NT is better than no agreement, but I'm pretty sure playing good/bad 2N when partner is not is significantly worse than no agreement. So... let's stick to the judgment issue here, please.

 

I assume that standard bridge means 2NT is a game try, and 3c and 3d are competitive, and anything else is game-forcing. If you think this is not what "standard" is, feel free to correct me.

[awm]

There are a number of possible bids here, including:

 

Double

2NT

3m

 

It doesn't make much sense for double to be "pure takeout" since the odds of having a spade fit in this auction are virtually nil. Double is also the only bid (other than pass) which gives the 1NT bidder the option to defend. It seems like when opener holds a big hand with roughly balanced shape, it's nice to give partner the defending option. So I'd interpret:

 

Double = balanced or nearly so (maybe singleton heart) with extra values, encourages partner to pass with a suitable hand (two trump tricks?) and consider game otherwise.

 

With this meaning for double, there is no real reason for 2NT to show a "natural invite." I would interpret 2NT in the relatively popular style as "two places to play" probably the two minors. Obviously this is not some shoddy minimum, but it's not a "real" invite unless partner can envision running a minor, and it certainly doesn't encourage partner to pass 2NT (everyone's favorite partscore?).

 

With this interpretation, which I think is not all that far from "expert standard" (I think most would take 1M-P-2M-2NT as two places to play even though this is not "standard bridge" or codified anywhere I can find) it seems like 2NT is a standout call.

[joshs]

In Washington DC, 2N in this auction shows 6-4 in the minors...

[mikegill]

Since most people bid 3♣ (this is what was bid at the table), let's say now that RHO competes to 3♥ in passout seat, and now it's your call again. If you pass, partner will X in passout seat. Are people passing and sitting, passing and pulling, or pulling directly?

[keylime]

I wish I had some form of G/B 2NT here.

 

I agree about 2NT being 6-4 in minors locally; have had it used against me twice.

 

I will not sit a double here, and I probably pull directly.

[Halo]

Pass and sit.

 

If I am going to speculate on the best result it might as well be +200.

[Guest Jlall]

I would crack the hell out of 3H at MP red/red. If I passed and partner doubled i'd be like yummmmmmm

[awm]

Passing partner's double seems like an easy decision.

[mikegill]

Here is the full hand:

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sxxxhaqjtxdxxxckx&w=sxxhxdakt98xcaqjx&e=saxxhkxxdqjxcxxxx&s=skqjtxhxxxxdxcxxx]399|300|Scoring: MP

p p 1♦ 1♥

1N 2♥ 3♣ p

p 3♥ p p

X All pass[/hv]

 

Should East be bidding 4m over 3h? +200 would have been 7/8 if 3H were going down, and -140 was a 1/8 if 3h hadn't been doubled, so clearly doubling was the right move if not bidding 4m or 3n. Clearly something needs to happen differently here, since E-W are doubling a cold 3H contract instead of bidding their making 3N or at least competing to 4m (5m is cold except for a spade lead, which may or may not happen from north). Obviously playing good/bad 2N would help, since West would show a good hand with 3m, and maybe East could bid 3n then (much tougher over 3c than over 3d). The 3h balance was after a tank too, so it was even harder for East not to take a swing. Thoughts?

[mike777]

Here is the full hand:

[hv=d=e&v=b&n=sxxxhaqjtxdxxxckx&w=sxxhxdakt98xcaqjx&e=saxxhkxxdqjxcxxxx&s=skqjtxhxxxxdxcxxx]399|300|Scoring: MP

p p 1♦ 1♥

1N 2♥ 3♣ p

p  3♥ p  p

X  All pass[/hv]

 

Should East be bidding 4m over 3h?  +200 would have been 7/8 if 3H were going down, and -140 was a 1/8 if 3h hadn't been doubled, so clearly doubling was the right move if not bidding 4m or 3n.  Clearly something needs to happen differently here, since E-W are doubling a cold 3H contract instead of bidding their making 3N or at least competing to 4m (5m is cold except for a spade lead, which may or may not happen from north).  Obviously playing good/bad 2N would help, since West would show a good hand with 3m, and maybe East could bid 3n then (much tougher over 3c than over 3d).  The 3h balance was after a tank too, so it was even harder for East not to take a swing.  Thoughts?

As usual prefer 3H not 2h. Get this hand off my chest in one bid

4hearts less than invite.

 

I think the hand as you present is very complicated but wonderful.

west shows stiff heart...5+d 4+ clubs and extras

east has a double fit........and stoppers in the majors.

wonderful hand......lots to discuss

[Robert]

Hi mikegill

 

The post clearly states no conventions used here. I clearly stated that I like to play good bad 2NT here.

 

Since joshs mentioned 2NT showing 6D and 4C 'in DC' and keylime also mentioned Good Bad 2NT, please feel free to compain about their posts since you complained about mine. Fair is fair. ;)

 

I play double= 4 clubs(and a good hand) and a direct 3C bid shows both 5(+) clubs and a good hand since I 'do play' Good Bad 2NT.

 

If you do play 3m shows ??? I would like to see the results with both screens and a footstool present. I know that I can often tell the value of the 3m bid from the way that the hand was bid. But it is not legal as I understand the laws.

 

I abstained for answering the question based on the lack of methods. If you want me to make bricks without straw, do not blame me after the building falls down.

 

Regards,

Robert

[the hog]

Well Mike, you can complain about my post as well, because for me this is a classic g/b 2NT. I would pass partner's X.

[Apollo81]

I think it's funny that none of the people that said they play good bad 2NT here stated what they would bid if playing that. Clearly there is more than one option. If I was playing that here then I would bid 3♦, not 3♣.