Competitive slam auction from NA Swiss

[jdonn]

1♠ 2♣ 2♦ 4♣

4♠ P 4NT p

5♠ P ?

 

Now what do people consider the meanings of these possible bids by responder?

5NT

6♣

6♦

 

I was opener here, holding AQJxxxx Axxx - Jx. What do people think is my correct bid over each of those bids by partner?

 

Full hand to follow.

[pclayton]

1. 5N should be specific Kings.

 

2. 6C in absence of the competive bidding should be "we have all of the keys, but I need a little help in clubs". I don't see why the opps bidding should change that.

 

3. 6D should be to play. He answered keys - we are placing the contract in our suit. We are in a stressed auction, so we need this optionto play 6D.

 

 

 

1A. 6S. Nothing to special mention and I can't count 13 tricks.

 

2A. 6S. Nothing special in clubs.

 

3A. Gag. Is 6D better than 6S? I'll try 6S even though it could be wrong.

[Apollo81]

This is a tough one, mostly because the bids in question are not well defined.

 

One reasonable set of meanings is:

 

5NT: we have all the keycards/I am trying for grand

6♣: pick-a-slam

6♦: I have x KQx AKQJ10xxx x

 

As such, I would pass 6♦ and probably bid 6♠ over the other two. If I was sure that pard meant 5NT as above then I can live with a 6♣ bid also.

 

I can also see someone claiming the above meanings, but with 5NT and 6♣ reversed.

[Fluffy]

5NT shows all keycards and little more, asks about extra tricks.

 

6♦ I'd take as natural, to play, but not quite sure.

 

6♣ would have no real meaning to me, but since 6♦ is confusing, I expect opener to cuebid ♦K, or even the Queen if he has it.

 

Neither bid asks about ♠J for me.

 

 

I don't think that american pick a slam is right in here, partner was prepared to play in 5♠, so 6♦ is not forcing us to pass, just offering us a probably better contract.

 

 

---------

 

On the given hand:

5NT -> 6♣ no extra trick at all

6♣ -> 6♠ nothing extra to show

6♦ -> 6♠ partner has some spade support, maybe bare king. Good enough.

[Fluffy]

6♦: I have x KQx AKQJ10xxx x

Partner is placing himself on slam off 2 aces any time we have ♠K with that, I think partner has better spade tolerance for the bidding, also he probably has 1 more keycard.

 

I'd say K-KQxx-AKQ109xx-x

[TimG]

I didn't even know that 4NT was keycard with spades agreed.

[TimG]

6♦: I have x KQx AKQJ10xxx x

Partner is placing himself on slam off 2 aces any time we have ♠K with that, I think partner has better spade tolerance for the bidding, also he probably has 1 more keycard.

 

I'd say K-KQxx-AKQ109xx-x

What, no negative double?

[Fluffy]

What, no negative double?

Is it mandatory for you?, I don't like to play 4-4 when I have a 7 card suit, you get tapped, and trumps 4-1 ruin your day. Still you have a point double is an option, just not everyone's option.

 

What about K Kxx KQJ9xxx Ax?

[ArtK78]

The meanings of the RKCB continuation bids are entirely a matter of partnership agreement.

 

5NT is unambigous - bid specific kings up the line. We have all of the key cards. This is a grand slam try, and responder can just bid the grand if he can count 13 tricks based on the fact that we have all of the key cards.

 

Without any competition, the 6C bid and the 6D bid are grand slam tries specifically asking for second round control in the bid suit (according to Kantar, the last time I checked). I suspect that the agreement is unchanged even in competition.

 

On this particular auction, I can understand why some would think that 6D might be to play. But that is not a good idea. One should not go in search of a new suit to play the hand at this level after a key card auction is started. Talk about inviting disaster.

[keylime]

Assuming pard's 4NT is RKCB for spades, I'd treat 5NT as spec kings as if they never bid.

 

6C for me is g/s try needing help in clubs for spades (pick-a-slam is I think not applicable here; you didn't support diamonds and instead bid your own hand).

 

6D I think is choice of slam between 6S and 6NT, and 6H...probably some sort of g/s try showing good hearts with absolute club control.

 

Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of 4NT being RKC for spades here; much prefer a cuebidding sequence.

[han]

I don't know what 6C is, I'd bid 6S with your hand.

 

6D should be to play, I think I'd pass.

 

5NT should be a grand slam try. I'd bid 6S.

 

 

I hope the suggestion of a negative double was a joke.

[mike777]

For me:

5nt=specific king ask

6c=shows k of clubs, asks for further cuebids

6d=k of D asks for further cuebids(2d was non forcing for me so partner cannot have a huge d hand and zero spades.) without that agreement I agree with everyone else and pass 6D.

[Halo]

My answer is 6S.

 

I have no extras. If partner wanted to play in 6D, he should find another way.

[kenrexford]

4NT was apparently taken as RKCB for spades, by your answer. I'll assume that this is clear in the partnership.

 

The specific meaning of 5NT is to bid "Kings" up the line. However, a stiff club is a "King" in this auction.

 

6♣ asking for third-round control seems initially to make no sense. 6♣ asking for second-round control is redundant. So, let's wait a second on this.

 

6♦ suggests a need for the Queen to make the grand.

 

Back to 6♣. What's left as an option? Choice-of-slams might make sense, but my answer showing the spade Queen seems to resolve any possible uncertainties that might otherwise suggest a diamond slam. However, partner having club Kx might be a real problem for him. So, I get back to my original treatment -- he "needs" the club Queen OR a stiff, for lead-proection reasons in this case. If I have the stiff or a Queen, I can bid 6♠. If not, I protect his club King by bidding 6♦. Sort of a blended answer.

 

============================================

 

What to do after...?

 

5NT ==> I don't think I'll get enough diamond pitches for the heart suit, so 6♠ for me.

 

6♣ ==> Ugh! Jx in clubs, but a void in diamonds. I think I'll take my chances at guessing what to do on the opening lead rather than making partner play diamonds opposite a void.

 

6♦ ==> He wants the Queen. A void might help anyway, if he has AKJxxxx. But, I ain't that brave.

 

============================================

 

I cannot wait for the actual hand. I smell a possible small club lead against 6♠...

[cherdano]

5N asks for specific king. 6C obviously can't ask for help in that suit, as it is impossible we are missing a 3rd round control in this suit. I wouldn't know whether it is some grand slam try or a choice of slams. 6D is to play.

 

I think it is clear not to cooperate with any slam try, my diamond void is really bad. I don't know whether it is right to pass 6D, but I would bid 6S on the theory that partner won't expect my void AND doesn't know I have ♠J.

[Impact]

Josh,

 

Generically I would play:-

 

5NT= asks for specific K up the line

6C= asks for specific Q up the line!!!

6D= to play on this auction

 

I would play it straight in response: 6S, 6S , P (and pray if you are that way inclined).

regards

[Guest Jlall]

6C should probably be pick a slam but anyone who would try that is a massochist. I agree that the usual 3rd round control ask doesn't make sense here.

 

6D should be to play, partner bid them naturally.

 

5N should show all the keycards and the trump queen.

[Finch]

1♠ 2♣ 2♦ 4♣

4♠ P 4NT p

5♠ P ?

 

Now what do people consider the meanings of these possible bids by responder?

5NT

6♣

6♦

 

I was opener here, holding AQJxxxx Axxx - Jx. What do people think is my correct bid over each of those bids by partner?

 

Full hand to follow.

I know what I have agreed these to mean with my regular partners:

 

5NT: Grand slam try, asks for kings

6C: systemically asks for the CK or CQ and shows grand slam ambition. Seems a bit odd in this auction, but maybe he is trying to count tricks for a grand

6D: asks about the KQ of diamonds

 

My general rule is that once you have used RKCB in one suit, you can't suddenly change your mind about what suit you want to play in at the 6-level (you can jump to 6 of a different suit, to play, but you can't bid 6D to play in this auction).

 

I agree that 4NT may not be RKCB in spades, but in my partnerships it is. If you want to play in diamonds, you have to bid them over 4S.

 

Without these specific agreements I would assume that

5NT = asks for kings

6C: looking for a diamond cue bid (probably the Queen)

6D: contract suggestion, offering 6D or 6S

 

On the actual hand I bid 6S. if 6D is a better contract, partner would have bid it over 4S.

[pclayton]

Strongly disagree that 6D is some sort of grand slam try for spades. It needs to be to play.

 

Another question is what is a 6H call in this sequence? I vote for last train for spades.

[ralph23]

2. 6C in absence of the competive bidding should be "we have all of the keys, but I need a little help in clubs"....

♣♦♥♠

 

If that's the right interpretation, and I think it is, then the only explanation for partner's bid is, that partner holds ♣Ace-small. (Surely the opps must have 9 ♣ between them.)

 

Partner also holds the Ace of ♦, as he wouldn't be making a GS try unless we held all the keycards; and I am void in diamonds.

 

So, won't I just play both his minor suit Aces, sluffing off a ♣ from my hand on the Ace of ♦ and voiding my hand of ♣ entirely? Thus removing any chance of having a ♣ loser ....

 

So bidding the grand seems right on this theory. What do you think?

[ralph23]

...For me:

5nt=specific king ask

6c=shows k of clubs, asks for further cuebids...

♣♦♥♠

 

On the meaning of 6♣: If partner indeed has the AK of ♣ (we already know he has the Ace, as he would not be trying for a grand without us having all the keycards), and is bidding 6 of that suit to show the King of ♣....wouldn't it be more efficient for him to just bid 5NT asking for specific kings?

 

That will achieve the same result. Either way I will show my lowest ranking King.... i.e. both 5NT and 6♣ would initiate the same King-asking sequence, which seems inefficient.

 

Therefore allowing us to reserve the 6♣ call for e.g. "I need HELP in ♣, e.g. I have Ax of ♣, can you help me?"

 

I didn't express that very well, but hope the meaning is nevertheless reasonably clear.

[jdonn]

Since there seems to be general agreement about 5NT, the question is what are 6♣ and 6♦ (I'm not that worried about 6♥ since it is above 6♦ and since I can't imagine wanting to bid it anyway.) Two things seem obvious to me. One is that partner may be stuck into keycard for spades on a hand where he either wants to play diamonds, or doesn't know which suit to play in. The other is that it is dumb to use all these bids as unlikely grand slam tries, especially 6♣ which really can't be anything useful, when it's so obvious a choice of slams would be useful. I agree most with Justin's post about the meanings of the bids. I give no credence to a meaning for 6♦ that is not either a command or offer to play.

 

Anyway full hand. I passed 6♦ since to me it means partner wants to play 6♦ and if that's what I think he means I can't imagine ever overruling without 100% solid spades. He might have always been playing in diamonds, but merely bid keycard to improve his guessing odds (for example, he might be able to bid some grands if I had every missing keycard.) The full hand was (opponents' club honors approximated)

 

[hv=n=skhktxxxdakq8xxcx&w=sxxhqjdjxxxcakxxx&e=stxxhxxdtxxcqxxxx&s=saqjxxxxhaxxxdcjx]399|300|[/hv]

 

It looks weird by partner to never bid hearts, but he did a great thing since spades is clearly the best trump suit for slam. He didn't want to risk 6♣ and was hoping I would read 6♦ as a choice of slams instead of a command since from his perspective spades or diamonds could be right, but I really don't think that's what it means. Anyway, RHO led a heart, so all's well that ends well :)

[mike777]

...For me:

5nt=specific king ask

6c=shows k of clubs, asks for further cuebids...

♣♦♥♠

 

On the meaning of 6♣: If partner indeed has the AK of ♣ (we already know he has the Ace, as he would not be trying for a grand without us having all the keycards), and is bidding 6 of that suit to show the King of ♣....wouldn't it be more efficient for him to just bid 5NT asking for specific kings?

 

That will achieve the same result. Either way I will show my lowest ranking King.... i.e. both 5NT and 6♣ would initiate the same King-asking sequence, which seems inefficient.

 

Therefore allowing us to reserve the 6♣ call for e.g. "I need HELP in ♣, e.g. I have Ax of ♣, can you help me?"

 

I didn't express that very well, but hope the meaning is nevertheless reasonably clear.

for me 5nt with spades as trumps....would be specific k ask.

Most of the time I expect the 5nt bid....partner skipping over 5nt and bidding 6clubs would be rare but possible.

6c= would be K of clubs showing. Perhaps my having the queen will be important.

We did have one recent auction that went something like:

1s=2nt!

3c!=3d!

4c!=4d

4h=4nt(rkc)

5c!=5d(Q ask)

5nt(Q of s, extras but no outside king)=6D(here partner showed K of D)

7D(Q of d)=7nt

 

 

 

One advantage of Kickback is that if some other suit is trumps we can do the specific K ask and showing at a lower levels. Again over 90% of the time we just start with specific K ask.......

 

I should add that for me specific K ask really is just saying......partner we got all the keys and the Q.......jump to 7 if you got alot of extra stuff if not just bid your specific kings up the line.....Often we just jump to 7 and do not bother to show specific kIngs.

[Fluffy]

I'd say K-KQxx-AKQ109xx-x

uhhh so close hehe.

[keylime]

I'd like to ask a question of the panel here who believe 6♦ is an attempt to play here.

 

Considering that pard bid spades twice in this auction, and that we have keycarded in that suit, how can we then differentiate strain with regards to what contract we're trying to get to. Since we didn't introduce hearts into the mix here (there's another can of worms), and we didn't raise diamonds when we had the chance to, after the keycard ask and rebid, how are we certain that we have intentions to play in diamonds when pard can cuebid to probe further? If pard wanted to play in diamonds by implication, I'd think they would cuebid instead of asking about keycards in spades to focus the auction.

 

This example is analogous to the style that some play where 4NT is keycard for the last suit bid and then yanked to another suit intended it to play - and I'm not a fan of it because of the confusion that it causes. I've had enough RKCB accident with this treatment to pull hair out.