Jacoby 2nt

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj6hk9854dkjct4&w=sa43h762d762ca976&e=s8hqjt3d543ckq853&s=st9752hadaqt98cj2]399|300|Scoring: IMP

A hand from BBO....[/hv]

 

Assuming you are NS and you play 2/1 and Jacoby 2nt (your favorite version thereof), how do you bid this hand ?

[TylerE]

p-p-1♥-p

1♠ - p - 2♠ - p

3♦ - p - 4♠ - AP

 

South hand is not an opener red vs white in 2/1 by my standards.

 

Axxxx

x

AQxxx

xx

 

Would be.

[cherdano]

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

[ralph23]

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

That's very interesting. So many people have different methods.

 

1. So, you don't play J2N as a game-forcing raise, but only as inv+ ? I admit to never having heard of that.

 

2. If 3♣ by opener shows any minimal opening hand (which this one certainly is by anyone's standards), then what is 4♠ by opener over responder's Jacoby 2NT? Thanks!

[Fluffy]

I might open 1♦ but that's not what you are lookig for :lol:

 

if I opened 1♠ it would go:

 

1♠-2NT

4♦-4♠

[ralph23]

I might open 1♦ but that's not what you are lookig for :lol:

 

if I opened 1♠ it would go:

 

1♠-2NT

4♦-4♠

So you would show your 5-card side suit, even with a dead minimum opener, yes?

[Fluffy]

I don't think it is dead minimum any more, partner has 4 spades so makes me worry little ot my trumps. My side cards are solid.

 

Still its minimum, bidding 4♠ its close, but I went for the agressive one to see it I reached unsafe level.

 

But north has no possible bid after 4♦ except 4♠.

[ralph23]

I don't think it is dead minimum any more, partner has 4 spades so makes me worry little ot my trumps. My side cards are solid.

 

Still its minimum, bidding 4♠ its close, but I went for the agressive one to see it I reached unsafe level.

 

But north has no possible bid after 4♦ except 4♠.

So you DO always rebid 4♠ with a dead minimum opening hand, if you are the opener, and partner bids Jac 2NT, is that right?

 

But, you just think this hand is "too good" to be classified as a "dead minimum"? So therefore you don't rebid 4♠ on this one, as that bid would under-state the quality of your hand.... Is that right?

 

I'm just trying to understand your position because there are so many different ways that people apparently play Jac 2nt...

 

 

NB -- It doesn't really matter what North does over 4♦ as we're talking now about the merits of the 4♦ bid versus just bidding 4♠ by opener. You can't as the opener know what responder has, except he has a good hand and spades.

[Fluffy]

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

 

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

[awm]

Suspect Elianna and I would bid either:

 

1♠ - 2nt(bad limit or GF) - 3♠ (NF no shortage to show) - 4♠ - Pass

 

1♠ - 2nt(bad limit or GF) - 4♠ (bad hand but extra shape) - Pass

 

Pass - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ - 4♠

 

One of the problems with the standard Jacoby structure is that it's hard for opener to distinguish minimum and maximum hands when unbalanced. Another problem is that minimum hands are supposed to bid 4♠, making it hard for a strong responder to explore.

 

In any case, if I opened the south hand (borderline in my style), I would be trying to put on the brakes after partner's Jacoby bid. The bad trumps are definitely a danger sign. I can't really imagine Fluffy's sequence where opener rebids 4♦ (showing a 5-5) and responder then signs off -- the spade honors and the ♦K are both huge in this auction, and it's not obvious to me that opener must bid on over a 4♠ signoff with Axxxx x AQxxx Ax (for example) as even 5♠ is risky opposite Kxxx AQx xxx KQx (for example, and this is not even a minimum hand) whereas slam is excellent opposite responder's real cards.

[ralph23]

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

 

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

Well, another vote (I think that now makes 2) that J2nt by responder isn't even a game forcing bid !

 

Well..... I confess that this is not what I was expecting !! In fact I've never heard of it being less than GF, so shows how much I know.... maybe we're too provincial in the South....

[ArtK78]

If the 2NT bid is not game forcing, then it is not Jacoby 2NT. By definition, Jacoby 2NT is a game forcing raise.

 

Personally, if my partner opened 1S on the South hand (which is far from clear), I would respond 2H and then 4S - a minimum game forcing spade raise with a heart suit. Why would I want to take control of the hand when I don't know how high to go? I have no first round control and no extras. Give partner useful information and let him decide how much to bid.

[neilkaz]

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

 

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

Well, another vote (I think that now makes 2) that J2nt by responder isn't even a game forcing bid !

 

Well..... I confess that this is not what I was expecting !! In fact I've never heard of it being less than GF, so shows how much I know.... maybe we're too provincial in the South....

Jacoby 2NT Plus..ie like Jordon 2NT over a take out double where 2NT shows a limit raise or better. This allows a jump to 3M to be preemptive and can save space since it takes up less bidding room than jumping to 3M to show a limit raise.

 

http://www.bridgematters.com/jplus.htm

 

http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com/2005/07/...-or-opener.html

[whereagles]

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 3♠

3NT 4♠

 

2♥ = I don't like J2NT on a hand like this, with a decent side suit

2♠ = if you play that 3♦ shows extras, then you must bid 2♠

3NT = frivolous, no slam interest

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I play 2NT* as 10+ with 4 trumps or some GF.

 

I also play 1M-2M as 3 trumps with 10-11 dummy points in my Big Club method.

 

This Aceless semi balanced hand might very well bid 1S-4S*=a shapely weak hand up to 13-14HCP opposite a limited 1S bid. Mekcwell picked up +800 when someone guessed wrong at the five level.

 

Regards,

Robert

[neilkaz]

Playing the "standard SAYC (gag :D )" responses to J2N it is difficult for this hand to stop short of a slam try, but I'd like to think the bidding at my table would go:

 

1♠ off course I open this

 

2NT prefering this to 2♥ with a ratty suit and strong 4 card support

 

4♦ a very fine 5 card suit with two of the top 3 honors and chances for it to produce extra tricks for slam

 

4♥ I like my KJ in ♦ but really am still minimum but with show PD my control and note that he can ruff my ♥ losers in a dummy reversal. (However, this hand is min and 4♠ is OK, but the KJ in ♦ may be just what we need for slam)

 

4♠ by opener ..in spite of the 4♥ Q bid, opener's hand is not much more than min for it's preceeding bidding and lacks a ♣ control.

 

Pass..by responser lacking a ♣ control and being quite min for for it previous bidding.

 

Still I fear that somewhat along the line opener or responder will get excited and make a fatal slam try. Bidding 3♣ after J2N with all mins makes lots of sense.

 

As for the direct jump to 4♠ that should be a bare or sub min opener like ♠AJ9xx♥Kxx,♦Kx,xxx

[hrothgar]

I'd also pass the 5=1=5=2 hand. I don't think this is worth an opening bid playing 2/1 GF.

[han]

My auction: 1S-2NT-3C-4S. 2NT is invitational or better with at least 4-card support, 3C shows any minimum, 4S is obvious.

[mike777]

♣♦♥♠

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj6hk9854dkjct4&w=sa43h762d762ca976&e=s8hqjt3d543ckq853&s=st9752hadaqt98cj2]399|300|Scoring: IMP

A hand from BBO....[/hv]

 

Assuming you are NS and you play 2/1 and Jacoby 2nt (your favorite version thereof), how do you bid this hand ?

1s=2nt(bergen version)(btw this is just about a dead minimum for 2nt)

3s!=3nt!

4H!=4s

p

 

1s=easy opener, not close

3s=minimum(less than decent), stiff somewhere

3nt=where?

4h=stiff heart.

signoff.

 

Also partner may just rebid 4s over our 3s minimum showing hand.

[han]

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

That's very interesting. So many people have different methods.

 

1. So, you don't play J2N as a game-forcing raise, but only as inv+ ? I admit to never having heard of that.

 

2. If 3♣ by opener shows any minimal opening hand (which this one certainly is by anyone's standards), then what is 4♠ by opener over responder's Jacoby 2NT? Thanks!

1. Yes, sorry you haven't heard of it before but don't panic, you can still be saved.

 

2. We haven't defined 4S.

[kenrexford]

I would open 1♠ with the South hand if I did not have the club Jack. For that matter, you can take the club Jack and change the diamond Queen to the Jack.

 

With the North hand, I am torn how to respond. I am not muddying the waters by responding 2♥, though. It depends upon partner's sense of humor how I bid. For the record, a 2♥ causes no problems. Partner rebids 2♠ or 3♦, depending upon schooling, Responder agrees spades by bidding 3♠, and one of us bypasses 4♣ to deny a club control. The other signs off. Easy.

 

If my partner is very tolerant of, and perhaps even endorses, some of my more idiosyncratic ideas, I'll respond the "obvious" 2♦. As I play, this may be, in essence, an "advanced cue" of sorts (a cuebiddable diamond holding and a spade fit). Opener will like that and bid 3♦. I'll now return to 3♠, setting trumps. Again, one of us will not cue clubs, and the other will promptly sign off at game. Easy again.

 

Now, as to why I dislike Jacoby. After Responder bids 2NT, Opener makes some call that bypasses any ability to indicate the possession of a club control, or lack thereof. Now, silly slams are bid.

 

The response structure that I use works decently to improve upon classic techniques.

 

Opener has many options after 2NT. Without explanation, trust that 3♦, 3♥, 3NT, and 4♠ all show balanced hands (3♦ and 3♥ are artificial steps).

 

With a bust balanced hand, Opener rebids 3♠, with 3NT as an asking relay. With a conentration of values in spades and another suit, 5-5 shape, Opener can make a "Picture Splinter" here. If he has a side suit (diamonds) with a stiff in the lower-ranking of the two other suits, he jumps to four of the side suit (4♦). That's wrong. If he has a stiff in the higher-ranking suit, he bids 3♣, which shows either a 5-5(higher stiff) or just any old sunbalanced hand that is not otherwise defined. Had Opener held A109xx in spades with a small stiff heart, he'd bid 3♣. In response to Opener's 3♦ inquiry, he'd bid 4♦, showing the same thing as a direct 4♦ but with the stiff in the higher ofn the remaining suits. Closer, but still not right.

 

So, Opener bids a simple 3♣, planning to just show the stiff. He can later cue hearts to show first-round control.

 

Responder will of course inquire, with 3♦. Opener has a stiff in the other major. As I currently play this, he will bid 3♥ to show that (first step). The new version is to bid the shortness in reverse order, with step one being the suoit right below trumps, the next step the suit two below trumps, and the third step (3NT) the remaining suit. Anyway, Opener bids 3♥.

 

Now, a cuebidding sequence starts. Ultimately, again, someone does not cuebid 4♣ and the other person signs off.

 

An interesting side note. Let's change South's hand to the ♠A109xx ♥x(x) ♦AQ109x ♣x(x) that I referred to earlier. Using the enhanced version, some nice things happen. If Opener shows a 5-5 COV with a stiff heart, Responder knows to sign off immediately, as neither of us has a club control.

 

If Responder had held Axxxx in hearts, instead of Kxxxx, then knowing of a club stiff would have helped a tad, but three diamond pitches will not take care of the fourth heart. However, after the 5-5 with a short club call (direct 4♦), you could use 4♥ as "LTTC," inferentially asking if the club shortness is a void, if you so desired. This way, 5-5's could include voids if space exists between the new suit and four of the agreed suit, space to bid "LTTC" as a de facto asking bid.

[mikeh]

1♠ 2N

 

Now:

 

1♠ was a stretch, but I bid it (and rebid 2♠ over a 2♥ response) because I will have trouble catching up if I pass... two suiters are difficult to show opposite a 3rd seat opening by partner, and I'd rather get in spades at the one-level than try to back in later if the opps bid.. but it is close.

 

As for North: I think 2N is clear. I am all for bidding 2♥ on most opening value 4=5=2=2 hands, but the hearts aren't good enough, the hand isn't good enough, and the spades rate to be too good... the J isn't wasted on the actual hand, but it will be wasted most of the time.

 

And I will NOT bid 2♥ then 4♠ as a picture bid, because of my diamond holding. KQxx AKJxx xx xx is a 2♥ 4♠ hand.

 

As to South: I play a version of J2NT where 4 of a lower suit shows a 5+ suit with a source of tricks... at least KJ9xx.. and obviously the diamond suit more than qualifies.. but the purpose of the bid is to allow partner to evaluate for slams: and I can see 5 compelling reasons why that is not a good path to travel if partner doesn't show enthusiasm first: 5 small trumps.

 

So I bid 3♠, showing a shitty hand with a stiff somewhere. Make my hand Axxxx Jx AQ10xx x and I'd bid 3♣... non-minimum with a stiff (or any huge hand).

 

Over 3♠, only a moron or someone interested in practicing methods would do anything but bid 4♠ signoff.... in the methods I am discussing, since it is impossible to construct a 3♠ hand that offers any play for slam.... we don't need much to bid 3♣..so 3♠ is a strong warning.. and North has..how many aces?

[whereagles]

I play a version of J2NT where 4 of a lower suit shows a 5+ suit with a source of tricks... at least KJ9xx.. and obviously the diamond suit more than qualifies.. but the purpose of the bid is to allow partner to evaluate for slams: and I can see 5 compelling reasons why that is not a good path to travel if partner doesn't show enthusiasm first: 5 small trumps.

 

So I bid 3♠, showing a shitty hand with a stiff somewhere.

Do you go to the 4 level on a min hand just because the suits are good? I don't think that's a good strategy... but then again, I don't think classic J2NT is a good support scheme anyway..

[mikeh]

I play a version of J2NT where 4 of a lower suit shows a 5+ suit with a source of tricks... at least KJ9xx.. and obviously the diamond suit more than qualifies.. but the purpose of the bid is to allow partner to evaluate for slams: and I can see 5 compelling reasons why that is not a good path to travel if partner doesn't show enthusiasm first: 5 small trumps.

 

So I bid 3♠, showing a shitty hand with a stiff somewhere.

Do you go to the 4 level on a min hand just because the suits are good? I don't think that's a good strategy... but then again, I don't think classic J2NT is a good support scheme anyway..

A hand with two good 5+ suits, in response to J2NT is, by definition, a non-minimum

[lowerline]

♣♦♥♠

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=skqj6hk9854dkjct4&w=sa43h762d762ca976&e=s8hqjt3d543ckq853&s=st9752hadaqt98cj2]399|300|Scoring: IMP

A hand from BBO....[/hv]

 

Assuming you are NS and you play 2/1 and Jacoby 2nt (your favorite version thereof), how do you bid this hand ?

Why Jacoby?

 

1♠ - 2♦(1)

2♠(2) - 4♠

 

1: inv+ transfer

2: min 0-1♥

 

If you force me:

 

1♠ - 2NT(1)

3♣(2) - 4♠

 

1: inv+ 4crd fit

2: neutral