Inverted minors questions

[elwood913]

Hi,

 

I have a few questions about inverted minors.

 

1) Do they apply equally well with or without competition (a direct overcall or X)?

 

2) What about over weak jumps? 1♦-(2♠/3♠)-? Holding 5 diamonds and a weak hand do I jump to 4♦ or even 5♦ over a weak bid?--that doesn't sound right. But other bids are unlikely to be attractive and passing with 5-card support in a competitive auction can't be right either. I'd like to show my support but don't necessarily want to get that high, especially since the opponents might not be able to bid any higher. Also, I might like to jump with my good hands to force the advancer to guess a little in deciding whether to continue the preempt on a higher level before he hears what opener might rebid. But then I would wonder how many points I'd need to be happy about jumping as high as the 5-level on my first bid, and if I require a few more points than normal, what will I do with the intermediate hands? So- keep the conventional treatment or not?

 

2) What do you bid with an unbalanced hand and 4 small in the minor and 6-9 points? Assuming you want 5 trump (or 4 good trump) for the jump raise, this holding looks like trouble when partner opens 1♦: Qxx x xxxx KJxxx.

2♦ or 2♣ is too strong, and 1NT doesn't feel right. A little more balanced (change a club or even a spade to a heart) and 1NT starts to look better, but what to do with this mess? If I bid 3♦ and catch partner with the wrong hand (4432 or something like Jxxx in diamonds) we could be in big trouble. Even if I catch partner with a good hand he might overestimate our trick-taking ability in ♦ and bid on and get us too high. Do I just bid 1NT and hope partner has some serious help in hearts? What if the diamonds were T972, should I call these 4 good trump and bid 3♦? Can I pass?

 

3) Partner opens 1♣ and I have 3244 with 4 weak clubs and 6-9 points. Do I bid 1♦ or 1NT? What is the minimum club holding (if any) you'd want to bid 3♣ with this distribution?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[helene_t]

1) Probably not. Some play inv. min. in competition but most would play 2♦ in competition as a competitive raise, 6-10 points. The double raise is still weak, maybe even weaker. Stronger hand make a cuebid.

 

2) You can't preempt a preempt. The simple raise is constructive but non-forcing. Not sure if it should show some 11 points or if it should show less. Maybe it's something to discuss with p (this is easier if you play a weak 1NT btw). Again, stronger hands cuebid.

 

The double raise 1m-(2M)-4m is a weired bid. You can make up some conventional meaning for it. I suggest it being used with a 5-card in the unbid major and a 5-card in opener's suit, choice of game.

 

2B ) This is for some a reason not to play inverted minors. You can bid 1NT or 3m. Both have obvious disadvantages so you must use your judgment. Occasionally try a pass or 1M on a 3-card just for fun :P

 

3) There is no particular reason to show a 4-card diamonds with a weak hand, but you may bid 1♦ with 4 (or 3) diamonds to get p to bid 1N, or with a very minimal hand with the intention of passing 1M. Four clubs is not enough to raise to the 3-level if you play 5-card majors, I think. A guaranteed 8-card fit is ok.

[ralph23]

1. OFF in competition.

 

2. Stronger hand (11+) with p's minor and not 4 hearts, cuebid. Weaker hand with some points and same shape, just a simple raise at the lowest level. Bad hand = pass. Yes, you can probably make it if you make a simple raise, but partner will think you have some values and may bid too much.

 

2 (again). My experience is, hold your nose and bid 1NT.

 

3. I suggest 1NT. 1♦ is a forcing bid, 1NT shows you have a weakish hand with some values. This holding points out some of the deficiencies IMHO of Inv. Mins. But every convention choice has some hands that make you think "Oh dang, if I weren't playing that stupid convention, I'd have a good bid now...." So it's a calculated trade-off.

[pclayton]

1. Off in comp

 

2. The only strong raise over a WJO is 3 of their suit. 4 of our minor is distributional and unsuitable for 3N.

 

2 (repeated). 1N usually. Nothing else fits.

 

3. 1♦ unless I'm a hand hog (or playing with a client).

[vang]

1. off in competition

2. off in competition ;-)

2. use 1NT. with 5 card fit, there is a trick, jump to other minor (1♣ - 2♦ and 1♦ - 3♣) to show a "mixed raise" - about 7-9 HCP - too weak for 2m, too strong for 3m.

3. 1♦ or 1NT depending on how your majors looks like (is it good to play NT from your side?). for 3m i'll preffer at least 5 cards.

[bid_em_up]

1) Do they apply equally well with or without competition (a direct overcall or X)?

The standard appears to be "Off In Competition" of any sort. Either an overcall or a double.

 

However, I have yet to find a valid reason for Inverted Minors to be off after a double, and prefer to play it as "Off over Bid, On over Double".

 

You can only do this after discussing it with partner, though, as they probably play it as "Off in competition of any sort". :huh:

[jtfanclub]

However, I have yet to find a valid reason for Inverted Minors to be off after a double, and prefer to play it as "Off over Bid, On over Double".

Welll...

 

The jump tends to stay weak. 1♦ (X) 3♦ is still pre-emptive. The difference is, 1♦ (X) 2♦ tends to be 7-9 with the suit, while XX is the 10+. There's really no reason to have the raise be limit or limit+ with the extra space provided.

[bid_em_up]

However, I have yet to find a valid reason for Inverted Minors to be off after a double, and  prefer to play it as "Off over Bid, On over Double".

Welll...

 

The jump tends to stay weak. 1♦ (X) 3♦ is still pre-emptive. The difference is, 1♦ (X) 2♦ tends to be 7-9 with the suit, while XX is the 10+. There's really no reason to have the raise be limit or limit+ with the extra space provided.

Well.....

 

I said Valid reason. This isn't valid.

 

What would you bid on 7-9 with the suit without the X? 1N (most likely). Why change your bidding structure to show this hand just because one opponent doubled? Bid 1N just like you were going to do without the double.

 

However, you can improve your structure after the X by:

 

1m (x) 1N for the 7-9 hands just like you would normally do.

1m (x) 2m for a strong minor suit raise.

1m (x) 2N for limit minor suit raise (which might include some of the 9 hcp hands as well).

1m (x) 3m for preemptive raises (which can easily include some of the 7 hcp hands).

And leaving XX in this case for the 10+ non-fit hands.....

[cherdano]

However, I have yet to find a valid reason for Inverted Minors to be off after a double, and  prefer to play it as "Off over Bid, On over Double".

Welll...

 

The jump tends to stay weak. 1♦ (X) 3♦ is still pre-emptive. The difference is, 1♦ (X) 2♦ tends to be 7-9 with the suit, while XX is the 10+. There's really no reason to have the raise be limit or limit+ with the extra space provided.

Well.....

 

I said Valid reason. This isn't valid.

 

What would you bid on 7-9 with the suit without the X? 1N (most likely). Why change your bidding structure to show this hand just because one opponent doubled?

Easy question. In competition, it is more important to show a fit immediately...

[jtfanclub]

I said Valid reason. This isn't valid.

 

What would you bid on 7-9 with the suit without the X? 1N (most likely). Why change your bidding structure to show this hand just because one opponent doubled? Bid 1N just like you were going to do without the double.

Competitive auctions tend to be fit auctions. After a common continuation, such as:

 

1♦ (X) 1NT (2♠)

 

your partner needs to know if he should move over the 2 spade bid. If he has a minimum with 4 diamonds, he needs to pass if you have 3 diamonds and bid if you have 4 of them. If your 1NT/2♦ split doesn't tell him, you've lost a lot.

 

And leaving XX in this case for the 10+ non-fit hands.....

 

Where do you need to know about the fit more...when you have a GF hand, or when you need to compete? If you XX with a GF hand with a diamond fit, you'll get another call.