Answer to fsf

[helene_t]

As a true Bergen fan you open (MP, love all, first seatl) 1♦, holding

AKx-void-QT9xx-J9xxx

 

Not surprisingly, it develops

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♠

?

[mike777]

As a true Bergen fan you open (MP, love all, first seatl) 1♦, holding

AKx-void-QT9xx-J9xxx

 

Not surprisingly, it develops

1♦-1♥

2♣-2♠

?

3S

 

I open this junk all the time. No problem yet.

Partner bids 4sf game force knowing I have this hand. She has more than some balanced 13 hcp hand.

[pbleighton]

3C. You opened this hand because it has 5 clubs, now show them.

 

I think 2NT is a terrible bid.

 

Peter

[helene_t]

Sorry Mike, I should have added that option.

[han]

I voted for 3C, including the dog.

[Guest Jlall]

3C showing my 5-5 seems clear. NT can wait.

[Echognome]

When I first saw this, I thought 3♣ was clear. But it does leave a feeling of what 3♠ should mean. Should that show a 3=1=5=4? a 3=0=6=4? or might it show a 3=0=5=5. Given that we didn't bid 1♠ over 1♥, I imagine it must show one of the above.

[neilkaz]

Another vote for 3♣ showing at least a 5-5 in minors.

[jtfanclub]

When I first saw this, I thought 3♣ was clear. But it does leave a feeling of what 3♠ should mean. Should that show a 3=1=5=4? a 3=0=6=4? or might it show a 3=0=5=5. Given that we didn't bid 1♠ over 1♥, I imagine it must show one of the above.

Or maybe 3-1-4-5 if I open those a diamond. At any rate, it shows my hand pretty well...far better than rebidding clubs would.

 

Put me down for 3 spades. If I rebid clubs, partner will never guess that I have spades stopped.

[helene_t]

The rule of thump that we learn here in NL is that the priorities are either (depending on the author)

- Xtra Major length (including 3-card support for p), 4th suit stopped, extra minor length, or

- 3-card in p' s suit, 4th suit stopped, extra length in own suit

 

So in this case the "correct" answer would be 2N. My Dutch pick-up p (who was a rather good player at least compared to me) said I should have bid 2N.

 

My own view was that 2N would be a distortion of my shape. In particular, I was worried if p would insist on a heart slam and be disapointed with my ♥ void. On the other hand, his next bid was 6♦ and before I saw the dummy I was worried if he would be disapointed with my spade vastage. (6♦ was the correct contract, fwiw). Also, 3♣ followed by 3N may suggest a more shaky spade guard.

 

There is a clear majority for 3♣ but would it make sense to bid 3♣ with this shape in general but make an exception with this strong spade holding?* 3♠ is more natural than 2N then, but 2N leaves more bidding space and if we make agreements about a 3♣ relay to 2N maybe I would still be able to show this hand. (* I actually considered bidding 1♠ at my second turn because I anticipated this problem).

 

On the other hand, we pattern out below 3N and show honours above 3N. If 3♠ shows a specific pattern I think it should be 3-0-6-4 which would otherwise require a space-consuming 3♦ bid. Still, I think 3♠ should promise a non-positional stopper (alternatively deny a stopper) so that responder knows if he can bid 3N.

 

Finally, since the range of 2♣ is 10-18 it would also be nice to be able to say something about the overall strength of the hand. Heck, you cannot compress the whole storry of life, the universe and everything into a 6-step bidding space.

[mike777]

Helene

 

We can agree that for those of us who open on junk. 4sf is messy auction. Hence we go out of our way to avoid it.

 

In fact thinking about it I guess I am a bit shocked how seldom it comes up and when it does it is often some minor suit slam try. :)

 

 

Needless to say I am very surprised with so many very good players rebidding 3c and not 3s on this one. :)

 

No comment on 2nt :)

[helene_t]

Helene

 

We can agree that for those of us who open on junk. 4sf is messy auction. Hence we go out of our way to avoid it.

 

 

Needless to say I am very surprised with so many very good players rebidding 3c and not 3s on this one. :)

 

No comment on 2nt  :)

It's like politics, Mike. I'm surprised so many literate voters don't vote for me. Oh, I'm not on the list, maybe that's why :)

[mike777]

Helene

 

We can agree that for those of us who open on junk. 4sf is messy auction. Hence we go out of our way to avoid it.

 

 

Needless to say I am very surprised with so many very good players rebidding 3c and not 3s on this one. :)

 

No comment on 2nt  :)

It's like politics, Mike. I'm surprised so many literate voters don't vote for me. Oh, I'm not on the list, maybe that's why :)

literate? is that like liberal?

 

:)

[ochinko]

2NT. Partner asks if I stop the spades. I stop them twice. Why would it be more important to show my additional ♣x instead of ♠AK? I expect 3NT to be easier to make than 5♣.

[Free]

Does 3♣ REALLY show 5-5? What do you bid with a 2=2=5=4 without a ♠ stopper? I know many use the cheapest bid to show nothing spectacular, so 3♣ would just deny a stopper and won't promisse 5-5... Maybe some other methods are used by now, like using 3♦ for this purpose, but this depends on agreements.

 

If I could show 5-5, I'd choose that, otherwise 2NT.

[mike777]

2NT. Partner asks if I stop the spades. I stop them twice. Why would it be more important to show my additional ♣x instead of ♠AK? I expect 3NT to be easier to make than 5♣.

Me thinks some are confused on what 2s and 3s means :)

2s does not, repeat does not, ask for spade stopper....it asks you to describe your hand more...:) that is not the same thing.

 

 

3s does not repeat does not deny a spade stopper...:)

[pbleighton]

Does 3♣ REALLY show 5-5? What do you bid with a 2=2=5=4 without a ♠ stopper?

 

2NT.

 

Peter

[ArtK78]

3C doesn't SHOW 5-5. But any other bid would certainly deny 5-5 in the minors.

 

Partner will be very surprised at your hand if you bid 2NT or 3S here.

[Finch]

Was 2S game forcing?

 

While many people play fourth suit as game forcing, it's not universal.

 

 

Leaving that aside for the time being (and assuming it's game forcing for the time being), one of general rules is:

 

- If I have a choice of descriptive bids to make, make the cheaper

 

So if I had a 5503 and it started 1S - 2D - 2H - 3C I would tend to bid 3H not 3NT.

 

On this auction 2NT and 3C are similar in cheapness. I would usually show the 5th club on the basis that we can always bid NT next round to show them stopped, but we can't show the long club. I don't mind 2NT on this hand because the clubs are so weak, but if I had to choose I would still bid 3C as that will discourage partner - who appears to have good hearts - more.

 

This is in the context of my usual agreement where 1D - 1H - 2C - 2S - 3C- 3S is re-fourth-suit (not natural), and I can bid 3NT over that. I can also bid 3NT over 3-red-suit from partner.

 

As for what 3S means, that is a matter for partnership discussion, I don't believe there is a standard. The agreement I have is that raising the fourth suit shows extra values and is usually 5422 or 5431 with 3 cards in the fourth suit but not wishing to bid NT. Again this depends on the order of the suits: 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - I would bid 2S on a 2524 rather than raise 2D to 3D. So for me, 3S here would show a hand more like Axx x AKJxx KQxx.

 

By the way, that is a (fairly) standard agreement if you play 4SF as non-game-forcing: raising the fourth suit shows a strong hand with no descriptive bid.

 

It's less important if FSF is game forcing, because you can just bid 2NT on the type of hand I describe above, and only pay a small price from sometimes wrong-siding the NT contract.

[pclayton]

Whats the most relevant feature of this hand? The double spade stop or the ♣Jxxxx? Most of the time, we will be marching toward 3N on power, and the spade stops are key.

 

I don't want pard to think I have a weak or even a single spade stop, and that what it sounds like to me if I try 3♣ (3♥) - 3N.

[helene_t]

The popular textbooks in NL teach fsf not GF but in this case it is. The rule is that if opener can support responder's first suit at the 2-level, it's not GF. Not sure which follow-ups are forcing, then.

[mikeh]

As is often the case, I strongly endorse Frances' post.

 

I do and (nearly) always have played 4SF as gf by an unpassed hand, altho certainly many play it as a 1-round force.. see BWS for example.

 

In any case, I cannot imagine using 3♠ on a weak hand... logic suggests that such a space-consuming bid show extra values.

 

I shudder at the idea of opening this hand (Bergen has a LOT to answer for with that silly rule of 20... ), but if this is an acceptable opening (with 70% of your hcp in a short suit and the minors rather than the majors), then 3♣ is not even close.

 

You opened because of shape, not strength. 2N would suggest a legitmate opening bid, almost certainly a minimum 3=1=5=4 or possibly 2=1=5=5 with weak clubs and good spades: AQ x KQxxx Qxxxx might well be 2N.

 

There is ample room to show the spade stopper if need be.

 

BTW. one useful way of looking at 4SF is that it is an announcement (when played as gf): 'partner, we are going to game or better, and I will tell you my suggestion for the denomination after you make the call that combines preservation of bidding space with description of hand'

 

In other words, opener's obligation is to describe his hand, but of he has two or more things to describe, he makes the cheapest call.

 

Consider that responder may be about to raise a minor.

 

2N would be the cheapest call, allowing responder to bid either minor in a forcing manner below 3N, but 2N is just too much a distortion, both of shape and of high card.

 

3♠ fails on all grounds.

 

So 3♣ is left. Partner can bid 3♦, over which we can bid 3♠... bidding 3N would be dangerous with a heart void and a partner who did not rebid the suit.

 

I personally rank the calls: 3♣100, 2N 70 3♠ 10 (but it deserves 0)

[ochinko]

2NT. Partner asks if I stop the spades. I stop them twice. Why would it be more important to show my additional ♣x instead of ♠AK? I expect 3NT to be easier to make than 5♣.

Me thinks some are confused on what 2s and 3s means :D

2s does not, repeat does not, ask for spade stopper....it asks you to describe your hand more...B) that is not the same thing.

 

 

3s does not repeat does not deny a spade stopper...:)

The repetitions doesn't make your post any more clear, trust me.

 

Do you think that 2NT doesn't necessarily show a spade stopper? I can't tell.

 

As for 3♠ it wasn't in the answers, and pounding on it looks like trying to hijack the thread. Furthermore, at least in SAYC raising the fourth suit shows 4 cards, so I don't see how exactly that bid describes your hand better. Even if you think it couldn't show that here, it looks like it shows extras that you don't have.

 

It also isn't clear from your post whether _you_ think you know what 3♠ means. I believe it implies that you do, but I can't be sure. It just looks like trying to make your partner as confused as yourself, so that you can win the post mortem.

 

As Frances said, it is important whether FSF is game forcing or not. If it is not, then 3♣ is ok as saying "Sorry partner, I opened very light. Could we stop at 3♣, please?" If it is GF, I still think 2NT is the proper bid.

[keylime]

3♣ from my three cats, and I approve this message. Frances as usual is stating my feelings as well.

[jtfanclub]

As for 3♠ it wasn't in the answers, and pounding on it looks like trying to hijack the thread. Furthermore, at least in SAYC raising the fourth suit shows 4 cards, so I don't see how exactly that bid describes your hand better. Even if you think it couldn't show that here, it looks like it shows extras that you don't have.

1. The original poster said that she should have added it. Don't you think her opinion counts on whether the thread was 'hijacked'?

 

2. Of course 3 spades can't show 4. What source are you using that says that the raise of a 4th suit shows 4 cards in SAYC? On a routine auction, eg.

 

1♣ 1♥

1♠ 2♦

3♦

 

I certainly wouldn't expect the 3 diamond bidder to promise 4.

 

As far as this auction is concerned, I'm somewhat confused. Partner bid 4sf, which I think is GF at such a high level. I suppose he could just be checking to see if I have 3 hearts or anything special before bidding 3NT, in which case I don't see how it really matters if I bid 3 clubs, 3 diamonds, or 3 spades, and 2NT (or 3NT for that matter) just determines who's going to declare it.

 

The other possibility is that partner is going for a minor suit slam. For a hand that I wasn't excited about moment ago, I'm a lot happier with it now.

 

I have a void.

I have an AK in what is most likely the danger suit.

I may have extra length in the suit in question.

 

If partner had a hand like...

 

xx xxxxx x AKxxx....

 

slam is there. Of course, he doesn't have all of those little x's, he has lots of points that I don't care about. There's probably a more scientific way to bid this one, but if 3♠ makes partner think I have a good hand (limited by the nonforcing 2 club bid, of course), I'm not convinced that I'm lying.