doubles

[jillybean]

Hi, I'd like some feedback on these 2 hands please.

 

Hand1

I thought the double was a slight overbid but 1♠ would have been

a (gross) underbid. I didn’t expect my p to pass X- 2♠

 

[hv=d=w&v=a&n=sq83hk74dt984ca96&s=sakj965hjdaqjcjt7]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

Pass Pass 1♣ Dbl

Pass 1NT Pass 2♠

Pass Pass Pass

 

 

Hand2

Is a double here still negative, showing ♥'s or should I just bid the ♥'s?

 

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ T72 ♥ AQ763 ♦ AJ5 ♣ J4

 

West North East South

 

- .. 1♦ 2♠ Dbl

Pass 3♣ Pass 3♥

Pass 3♠ Pass 4♦

Pass 5♦ Pass Pass

Pass

[neilkaz]

Hand 1) Teach PD how to respond to an overcall. I think 1♠ is only a slight under bid to which PD must raise to 2 and you then bid game. After you show a hand too strong to overcall, PD's pass is sickening. Did PD think you doubled and then pulled to 2♠ with a routine double with only 4♠'s ? If so..educate him or find a new PD.

 

Hand 2) I think you are strong enough to GF here and I'd just bid my decent 5 card ♥ suit rather than cloud the issue with a neg X which could result in issues if LHO raises spades and PD think you have only 4♥'s.

 

Just my opinion... neilkaz ..

[Robert]

Posted the same thing twice. Late last night. :P

 

Regards,

Robert

[Robert]

Hi jillybean2

 

Doubling with a singleton in an unbid major is a very dangerous bid.

 

Are you sure that partner will believe that your heart support is really "J" after you double and later bid spades? When partner holds Kxxxx of hearts and x in spades is he really supposed to not rebid hearts even at a high level after you show a strong hand?

 

Those three losing clubs are also a warning sign that doubling might not be the best bid.

 

How often do you get passed out in an overcall? It virtually never happens in the modern bridge game 'unless' playing against a very weak pair.

 

Hand #2 I would bid hearts here, partner can raise with three and 'if' you double,

partner will need four hearts to bid them since you only promised four.

 

Making a negative double and rebidding in hearts 'without' prior agreement tends to show long hearts and a hand that did not have the values to bid at the three level. AQJxxx and nothing on the side might be bid this way.

 

Regards,

Robert

[EricK]

Doubling and then bidding a suit! Two different auctions, two totally different meanings. On the first hand, the 1♠ overcall would be NF. On the second, the 3♥ bid would be GF.

 

Because of this, most people play that doubling and then bidding a suit shows a strong hand on auction 1, but not on auction 2 because that type of hand is shown by the direct bid.

 

Clearly though, your partner was on a different wavelength on hand 1. He was probably playing you for something like a minimum 5422 hand. As an aside, I would have overcalled 1♠ with this hand, but if I had chosen to double, then a 3♠ or 4♠ rebid would remove any ambiguity.

 

On the second auction, if I were your partner I would probably have thought you had an invitational hand with short ♠ and 6♥ i.e. not strong enough to bid a GF over 2♠, but strong enough and long enough in ♥ so that the chance of getting to a good game outweighs the risk of getting to the 3 level on a misfit.

[barmar]

You also need to teach partner how to respond to a take-out double. Axx in opener's suit is not enough to bid 1NT, since he should expect you to be short in the suit. He has a 4-card suit, he should bid it -- his correct bid is 2♦ to show 9-11 HCP.

 

But I wouldn't double with your hand. A reasonable auction would be:

 

P P 1♣ 1♠

P 2♠ P 3♣(1)

P 4♠ All Pass

 

(1) Help-suit game try

[jillybean]

Erick, I never considered these doubles similar. Simply 2 hands that I am interested in where I rightly or wrongly doubled. I do not like your suggestion that I double then jump to cater for my partners inadequacies. I want to learn how to bid in a partnership, not make unilateral calls. B)

 

 

Hand1

Isn't a simple overcall more like 8-15? I have 16 and a lovely ♠ suit. I'm afraid it will go (P) P (1♣) 1♠ AP

 

Hand2 I can still force to game after a double and I havent used up any room by making a 3♥ bid.

[helene_t]

Isn't a simple overcall more like 8-15? I have 16 and a lovely ♠ suit. I'm afraid it will go (P) P (1♣) 1♠  AP

That's what they teach here in NL, probably due to the influence from Berry Westra who plays that style himself. Most experts play a higher upper range for an overcall. Even if p assumes your overcall is limited to 15/16, they would still consider it a lesser distortion to overcall with 17 points than to dbl with a singleton in an unbid major. See Robert's post.

 

Anyway, your 2♠ bid is probably forcing, and even if it isn't, partner should not pass with such a good

 

Hand2 I can still force to game after a double and I havent used up any room by making a 3♥ bid.

 

Yes, but your options are limited. Your 3♥ bid is not forcing, you would have to cuebid to show a strong hand. And that would not suggest extra hearts length. What you showed was a weak hand with 6+ hearts.

[EricK]

Erick, I never considered these doubles similar. Simply 2 hands that I am interested in where I rightly or wrongly doubled. I do not like your suggestion that I double then jump to cater for my partners inadequacies. I want to learn how to bid in a partnership, not make unilateral calls. B)

 

 

Hand1

Isn't a simple overcall more like 8-15? I have 16 and a lovely ♠ suit. I'm afraid it will go (P) P (1♣) 1♠ AP

 

Hand2 I can still force to game after a double and I havent used up any room by making a 3♥ bid.

With hand 1, partner has described and limited his hand by the 1NT response. Even if 2♠ is 100% forcing, you don't actually gain anything by bidding it on a hand where you know you are going to play in ♠ - if partner doesn't support your spades straight away you will rebid 3♠ yourself anyway. So bidding 3♠ isn't just to cover partner's inadequacy - you can also use it to show this sort of hand - single suited in ♠ and keep 2♠ for hands which still need to search for somewhere to play (eg strong 5530 or 5440 hands).

 

The reason I overcall 1♠ is that I like to keep doubles shape suitable unless I absolutely can't bear to risk everybody passing my overcall.

 

On hand 2, you want two ways to bid ♥ - GF hands and invitiational hands. You need to split them up somehow and there is very little room. If you play that double followed by a new suit is GF and that the immediate bid of a new suit is GF then what will you do on hands without GF strength?

[Robert]

Hi jillybean2

 

Point count is a guide and judgement should also be used before you decide on a bid. The three losing clubs plus the singleton Jack of hearts both strongly suggest overcalling and 'not doubling.' Just my style after some four decades of bridge.

 

Very few one bids are passed out in a decent bridge game. I play an overcall style that normally includes 17-18HCP hands. I cannot remember the last time that one of my heavy overcalls was passed out.

 

Several posters have already mentioned that your double and 3H bid on the second hand 'was not forcing.' It normally shows long hearts and that you did not have the HCP to bid 3H 'forcing' at your first call.

 

I am not suggesting a unilateral decision. You should try to make the correct bid at the table. EricK suggested his style of bidding(mine would be that 2Ss was forcing 'because of my overcall range and style)

 

If you are doubling with much less HCP, that 1NT reply might be made on about an 8-11(7-10, I have seen many ranges suggested in both books and on forums) range and a 2S bid showing 15 would not be a forcing bid. You would have to jump to force to game 'if' your ranges were much lower than mine.

 

If you have not read Mike Lawrence's book on Overcalls, I strongly recomment it.

Please be advised that there are various styles in competition and you have to play the same one as your current partner plays or problems will follow.

 

Regards,

Robert

[jillybean]

OK, so Hand1 should have been a simple 1♠ overcall.

 

Hand2, If I bid 3♥ and we dont' have a fit, haven't I put my partner under considerable pressure to bid at the 4 level now?

 

What the heck do I know, but I think an immediate 3♥ showing a weak heart hand and a double followed by 3♥ GF is the best use of the bidding here.

[jillybean]

OK, so Hand1 should have been a simple 1♠ overcall.

 

Hand2, If I bid 3♥ and we dont' have a fit, haven't I put my partner under considerable pressure to bid at the 4 level now?

 

What the heck do I know, but I think an immediate 3♥ showing a weak heart hand and a double followed by 3♥ GF is the best use of the bidding here.

[barmar]

There's not really a need for a weak bid in auction 2. RHO is bidding weakly, it's not usually necessary to preempt over a preempt. So standard bidding focuses on constructive auctions in this case.

 

Your hand is good enough to bid 3♥. With your length in the preemptor's suit, it's very likely that you have a fit in ♥ or ♦. Partner probably only has 1 or 2 ♠, so his shape is likely to be something like 2=3=4=4 (♥ fit), 2=2=5=4 (♦ fit), and it could very well be 1=3=5=4 (double fit). Your AJx in his opening suit should upgrade the value of your hand, so you don't mind forcing to the 4 level.

[neilkaz]

JB "OK, so Hand1 should have been a simple 1♠ overcall."

 

NK... once again, this is a matter of style. I lean towards double then ♠ since I am prepared with my fine 6 carder to pull what ever PD bids to ♠. If my majors were reversed I'd overcall 1♥ since I am worried about LHO preempting in ♠ or PD burying us in ♠ with or without opp preemption.

 

NK...Now, make a small ♠ an ♥ and my hand has only 5 spades and less offensive potential and I am less concerned that I may be passed out and miss game so then I definately only overcall 1♠. Give me an extra HCP to make it 18 with the same fine 6 carder and I definately double and rebid ♠ since, the more HCP you hold, the greater the risk of a passout. As the cards lie, with your 17 HCP and good 6 bagger, you are on what I'd consider to be the fence and I find no fault in either action. The fault lies in your PD's failure to raise with 9 HCP and 3 trumps.

 

NK...I like PD's 1NT response with a scattered 4333 9 HCP and consider him to have a minor suit opener (esp ♣) adequately stopped. I would not jump to 2♦ on a flat 9 count and a ratty 9 card suit when the take out double so often is major suit oriented anyhow. After 1NT, if the takeout doubler is interested in 3NT but has nothing to at least aid in another ♣ stop, he can bid 3♣ and tell that to PD (although by that time, you may be overboard with out other options, but not always)

 

JB "Hand2, If I bid 3♥ and we dont' have a fit, haven't I put my partner under considerable pressure to bid at the 4 level now?

 

What the heck do I know, but I think an immediate 3♥ showing a weak heart hand and a double followed by 3♥ GF is the best use of the bidding here."

 

NK... standard is that an immediate 3♥ is GF (or at least forcing to 4 of opener's minor) and I really think this hand is good enough. Double followed by 3♥ should be a somewhat weaker hand, IMHO.

 

NK... After 3♥, PD just bids game with 3 card support. He can bid 3NT if he stops the opps suit well, he can bid 3♠ to ask you for a stopper and then you retreat to 4♦ and he can pass (rarely) or carry on to 5♦ or try for game in a 5-2 ♥ fit which you won't hate with your AQ if he has Kx in support or at least Jx.

 

NK...What did PD hold ? Did he have 3 card ♥ support and think your bidding only should 4♥ and were searching for 3NT ? If he bid 5♦ rather than 4♥ with three card support, he missbid the hand, IMHO.

 

Just my opinions..and there are many styles and methods with these hands, especially hand 1. .. neilkaz ..

[han]

Hand 1 I'd bid 1S, double followed by 2S is a gross overbid in my style.

 

Hand 2 is a clear 3H bid.

[helene_t]

Hand2, If I bid 3♥ and we dont' have a fit, haven't I put my partner under considerable pressure to bid at the 4 level now?

Not really, he can temporize with 3♠ if he doesn't have ♥ support and no ♠ guard. You do want to force to game, don't you? If so, p will bid 3N over you 3♥ if that is right so if he bypasses 3N that must be right as well. Otherwise you can double and then correct 3♣ to 3♦.

[neilkaz]

Hand 1 I'd bid 1S, double followed by 2S is a gross overbid in my style.

 

Hand 2 is a clear 3H bid.

Wow, double then 1♠ is a gross overbid in your style ! But in this thread you'd overcall on 5 HCP with AJxxx ! http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=20389

 

Please don't take this as a criticism, as it most definately in NOT. I have not found that this 5 to 19 HCP style of 1 level overcalls works for me, whatsoever. PD's overcompete when I have even 7 HCP and I get passed out or PD's fail to raise later on when I have 18 HCP and a wonderful 6 bagger and jump rebid at the 3 level next round.

 

Anyhow, I suppose if you just overcall 1♠ with hands somewhat (I'll assume a decent 19 count is your max) stronger, then you must be certain to rasie any overcall with anything that can raise an opening bid (a good idea anyhow, IMHO) or risk missing games.

 

If you overcall 1♥ with AJxxx and that's the only HCP in your hand and advancer raises or competes to 2♥ with Qxx, Kxx, Jxxxx, xx you're not terribly concerned with being doubled except at unfavorable vul since the opps can make game (if not the occasional slam). But still, overcall with 5 HCP is not my style unless I can jump overcall and I get passed out too often when I overcall with 18 HCP (but many PD's don't raise aggressively enough)

 

Please elaborate more about your max and min hands for 1 level O/C's and most importantly your minimum hands to raise the overcall or to bid a new suit or NT (noting that any 18+ hand may have good play for 3NT even in the absence of a fit if advancer has stop(s) and an outside card.

 

ty .. neilkaz ..

[Robert]

Hi jillybean2

 

Do not change your bidding simply because someone says so. You should read the various opinions and decide what you think is best. A lot of posts on the net do not offer good advice IMO.

 

That second hand can be further defined by using 2NT*(=Good Bad 2NT*) when a bid is made to your right. Bidding directly shows the values for that level while a 2NT* bid tells partner to bid 3C* and you will either pass or bid your long suit 'with less than forcing values.

 

If doubling without support for unbid major suit and three losers in the suit opened is what you want to bid, do so. My style is different, however, it seems to work.

 

Against stronger pairs, you will find them jumping the level fairly high before you get a chance to show your suit. Poor partner might find himself bidding 4Hs 'thinking' that you have support just because you made a takeout double.

 

Are you sure that your 4S bid over his 4H bid will not be taken as a cuebid in support of hearts?

 

helene-t hit the nail on the head with her comment about partner bidding 3S if he cannot support hearts. Because you showed game forcing values and partner holds a spade stop, he will bid 3NT. With heart support, he can bid 4Hs.

 

Regards,

Robert

[pbleighton]

Both hands are close.

 

In one partnership (down the middle, for me) I would bid 1S on 1, though it's close. In the other (wildly aggressive 1 level overcalls, and much else), I would double without a doubt. With a pickup partner I would probably bid 1S.

 

On 2, 3H is the right bid, but double isn't terrible.

 

Peter

[jillybean]

NK...What did PD hold ? Did he have 3 card ♥ support and think your bidding only should 4♥ and were searching for 3NT ? If he bid 5♦ rather than 4♥ with three card support, he missbid the hand, IMHO.

Here is the full hand2,

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq3h5dkt8764cakt6&s=st72haq763daj5cj4]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♦    2♠    Dbl

 Pass  3♣    Pass  3♥

 Pass  3♠    Pass  4♦

 Pass  5♦    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[ralph23]

1. One ♠ on hand 1. While the so-called "big hand" double (BHD) is very useful, it has a downside or two: (1) it leaves your partner in doubt as to what you have and he won't suspect you have the BHD hand, and is always surprised when you do, so it takes more time to convey your hand to him; and (2) it doesn't take up any room in competitive auctions, and the opps may get crazy on you before you get your second chance to call. We play normal 1-level overcalls up to 17 HCP. I believe Bergen recommends up to 18, but not sure, I may be imagining this. You can probably check it out on his website.

 

2. Same reasoning on hand 2. You are strong enough to bid 3♥ so bid it. It is not GF, even in 2/1 GF methods. Speak your peace as quicky as possible when it is competitive. Try to get your message over to P as quickly and efficiently as you can so that he is well placed to compete.

[jillybean]

A lot of posts on the net do not offer good advice IMO.

And it is not always easy to sort out the good from the bad, some are adamant that their way is the only correct way.

I have a few favorite forum members whose advice I take seriously, maybe I can solicit a couple of email address to simplify the process.

[han]

Neilkaz, I gave you our follow-ups in the other thread.

 

I'm not at all worried that partner raises to 2H and it goes for a large number. Sure, it may happen, lots of bad things can happen. Lots of good things can happen too. They may not be able to get double us in our fit. They may have a harder time getting to the right contract. etc. etc.

 

I am worried though when I double with a singleton in an unbid major. I go out of my way not to do that and I would overcall 1S with stronger hands than this one. Again, bad things might happen but usually they don't. It is important to agree on a style and stick to it.

[neilkaz]

Neilkaz, I gave you our follow-ups in the other thread.

 

I'm not at all worried that partner raises to 2H and it goes for a large number. Sure, it may happen, lots of bad things can happen. Lots of good things can happen too. They may not be able to get double us in our fit. They may have a harder time getting to the right contract. etc. etc.

 

I am worried though when I double with a singleton in an unbid major. I go out of my way not to do that and I would overcall 1S with stronger hands than this one. Again, bad things might happen but usually they don't. It is important to agree on a style and stick to it.

A very nice and detailed reply it is, also ! Thx .. neilkaz ..

[neilkaz]

A lot of posts on the net do not offer good advice IMO.

And it is not always easy to sort out the good from the bad, some are adamant that their way is the only correct way.

I have a few favorite forum members whose advice I take seriously, maybe I can solicit a couple of email address to simplify the process.

The good thing about this forum is that you get to see the advice of lots of players and then in these cases you can see where almost everyone agreed. ie Hand 2 where 3♥ is clear to most.

 

Now in hand 1, there's not agreement, but the majority seems to prefer a direct 1♠ to the BHD idea. I am more old fashioned and slightly prefer the BHD here with ♠, intending just to correct 4♥ to 4♠ etc, but, I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone who overcalled 1♠. It seems that the modern concept is to be able to overcall with hands somewhat stronger than 16 HCP, as long as they aren't monsters that miss lots of games when passed out.

 

As long as you and your PD's give a single raise with any 3 card support that would raise an opener, you won't miss too many games overcalling on 17 HCP or even a non descript 18, IMHO. Once in a while, however, PD will pass with 2 card support and a scattered 6 count or fear to bid NT with 7 or even 8 HCP (perhaps no stopper) and you may miss a game, but the opps often balance and give you more chances to find game.

 

I suspect I'll raise my simple overcall range to 17+ HCP from 17- (noting I consider you hand 17+ inspite of the jacks since you have a superb carder)

 

It is important to discuss overcalls with your regular PDs and the things you don't want are PD passing all the way thru with three trumps and 7 or 8 HCP, nor do you want then blasting to 3NT with a scattered 13 count when you may have overcalled on AQxxx,xx,Qxx,xxx