Tour De France

[mike777]

  If enhancing agents/methods were legalised, then in order to succeed in their sport, elite athletes would have to use potentially dangerous products. It's one thing to choose to use them knowingly - but quite another to feel like you have to use them in order to be competitive.

You seem to have missed my main point though I have made it many times.

 

Enhancing agents are legal. Many of them are legal. If you think we should make all enhancing agents illegal ok, but they are not.

 

Water is an enhancing agent, aspirin is an enhancing agent, vitamins, pain killers, sport drinks, cortosone needle shots, the list is endless. People are dying or at the very least getting very hurt from these things directly or indirectly. See American Football players.

 

Basic natural water makes millions very sick around the globe, but I do not think anyone wants to ban water based on the rule it can be very dangerous.

 

What enhancing agents are you going to allow? arbitrary or some other rule?

 

Please note enhancing agents are used much more often in the general public than by sports players.

[hotShot]

Anyway, the benefit from doping is obviously a lot higher in cycling than football or American football.

I don't think thats true.

 

Football (Soccer) player at top level have to run about 10-12 km a game (about 90 min) top clubs often have 2 games per week over long periods. Perhaps you noticed that injured players recover in incredible short time.

 

Obviously a player who is not exhausted at the end of the game has a big advantage. (e.g. Blood doping, EPO ...)

Obviously anything that keeps a player going at high levels over weeks (with lots of games) is a big advantage. (e.g. EPO and Testosterone)

Obviously a fast recovery from injuries, is a big advantage. (e.g. steroids, growth hormone, Testosterone).

 

"Fortunately" football player are only tested after competition (usually only 2-3 of a team) and usually only urine tests are made.

[irdoz]

No I did not miss your point at all mike777. I just didnt want to get into a long policy discussion about where and how to draw the line because Ive seen attempts and they are all messy. Some of your examples are or have been in the past banned substances - maybe not by american football but by some olympic sport federations.

 

Water and EPO are clearly different. They may both be enhancing agents in some contexts - but only EPO is associated with early death. Breathing is also performance enhancing and as the saying goes 'breathing is fatal'. Indeed I regularly talk to people about their health in my work - and their excuse for not adopting healthier lifestyles is precisely like this - 'well everything is harmful' or 'breathing is fatal'... Their logic seems somewhat similar to yours... but water is ok and performance enhancing so why isnt EPO treated the samw way?

 

Clearly we are not about to ban either breathing or water - if you want to argue that they are logically no different from something like EPO because they are both performance enhancing go right ahead. I don't think it takes us anywhere useful.

[mike777]

No I did not miss your point at all mike777. I just didnt want to get into a long policy discussion about where and how to draw the line because Ive seen attempts and they are all messy. Some of your examples are or have been in the past  banned substances - maybe not by american football but by some olympic sport federations.

 

Water and EPO are clearly different. They may both be enhancing agents in some contexts - but only EPO is associated with early death. Breathing is also performance enhancing and as the saying goes 'breathing is fatal'. Clearly we are not about to ban either breathing or water - if you want to argue that they are logically no different from something like EPO because they are both performance enhancing go right ahead. I dont find iy useful or insightful myself.

I am willing to bet more early death from water than epo.....maybe hundred times more?

 

As I said this all seems very random to me.

Some chemicals ok..other chemicals not ok

Some chemicals kill more than others but still ok......

Pain killers ok.....speed ok....greenies, ok...reds ok alcohol.....etc etc...but not epo? ok but why?

 

If epo is useless or kills on contact ok...just say so. :lol:

 

Let me try another line of questions.

 

If I can have a surgery that makes my arm or legs stronger than before is that legal?

 

Can I put some foreign object in my body, say ligaments from another animal or something or a steel plate...it that still legal?

 

Can I ever, ever, use artificial blood or artificial skin and still play sports?

 

Can i replace a hip or joint or muscle?

 

The list is endless. B)

 

If any I mean any enhancement is ok as long as it does not kill you too much ok...but I do not see our sports saying that. :)

[irdoz]

I am willing to bet more early death from water than epo.....maybe hundred times more?

 

I assume you dont mean drowning in water sports. Sure hyperhydration after intense exercise is sadly still too common a cause of death. And yes more people will have died from hyperhydration after intense exercise than from EPO. But the water which is being used that causes death in hyperhydration is generally being used after the 'performance' - and not to enhance performance. And although hyperhydration is often commonly referred to as 'water poisoining' the cause of death is usually attributed to the underlying cause - dehydration after intense exercise.

 

Pain killers ok.....speed ok....greenies, ok...reds ok alcohol.....etc etc...but not epo?

 

1. Pain killers are banned by most olympic sports federations

2. Speed is banned by all olympic federations.

3. Greenies - something to do with people who like trees?

4. Reds - an old fashioned term to describe communists?

5. EPO is not some 'exception'...the banned list is quite long.

 

But then while you may have a poiint about the difficulty of determining a dividing line you have missed the point about the necessity of a line - and no i dont want to define the parameters for divining such a line.

[helene_t]

If performance enhancing drugs are allowed by sports federations it will (essentially) force any players who hope to be competitive to start doping. The vast majority of these individuals will never compete at the elite, will never bring in the big bucks, and will still suffer all the negative side effects.

Suppose there was no World Suctionssport Federation, but instead two competing federations, the World Doped Suctionsport Federation and the World Dopefree Suctionsport Federation. So two World Champions, the dopped one having scored higher. Now sponsors, wannabe athletes, media and spectators can chose which of the two federations they support.

 

Maybe I'm overselling my faith in market forces. You do have a valid point, Richard.

[mike777]

I am willing to bet more early death from water than epo.....maybe hundred times more?

 

I assume you dont mean drowning in water sports. Sure hyperhydration after intense exercise is sadly still too common a cause of death. And yes more people will have died from hyperhydration after intense exercise than from EPO. But the water which is being used that causes death in hyperhydration is generally being used after the 'performance' - and not to enhance performance. And although hyperhydration is often commonly referred to as 'water poisoining' the cause of death is usually attributed to the underlying cause - dehydration after intense exercise.

 

Pain killers ok.....speed ok....greenies, ok...reds ok alcohol.....etc etc...but not epo?

 

1. Pain killers are banned by most olympic sports federations

2. Speed is banned by all olympic federations.

3. Greenies - something to do with people who like trees?

4. Reds - an old fashioned term to describe communists?

5. EPO is not some 'exception'...the banned list is quite long.

 

But then while you may have a poiint about the difficulty of determining a dividing line you have missed the point about the necessity of a line - and no i dont want to define the parameters for divining such a line.

ok again I see many seem not to understand the basics

 

If you do not know what greenies or reds are I give up

If you do not know that millions get sick from natural drinking water..I give up

 

Again it seems everyone defines...enhancing or chemicals much too narrow.

 

My main point to repeat is....enhancing chemicals are allowed in many forms...these chemicals make millions sick or kill all over the world.

 

Of course epo and aspirin are not exactly the same, so what?

They are both chemicals, they both enhance performance...they both make people ill. For all I know asprin kills almost as many as epo or more?

 

I am willing to bet pain killers lead to more deaths or illness than epo...muchmore.

 

Again this all seems arbitrary. :lol:

 

No one even comments on things such as enhanced surgery etc....B)

 

The world of sports is much bigger than olympics...I fail to see why posts continue to define this stuff in such tiny, tiny terms...:)

 

As helene points out there are many many more than two federations of sports, worldwide,, think bigger. :)

[irdoz]

You seem to be making a lot of points that do not fit together well into a logical argument.

 

If you do not know what greenies or reds are I give up

 

Yes I know what they are in the context you are using them. If you cannot see a joke or sarcasm I give up? You see how easy it is to be insulting and argumentative instead of having a reasoned conversation?

 

If you do not know that millions get sick from natural drinking water..I give up

 

Yes millions get sick from drinknig 'water'. Yes I have in the past volunteered to work in countries where large volumes of such deaths occur - so I am very aware of the impact of drinking 'natural' 'water'. This has exactly nothing to do with the use of water as a performance enhancing agent in sport.

 

If you want to say EPO and aspirin are the same go ahead becasue 'they are both chemicals and both enhancing' go ahead. Jumping from a 1 foot cliif and jumping from a 200 meter cliff are both jumping so therefore they are the same and should be treated equally. Oh Realy? If this is your logic perhaps indeed giving up is a good idea. :lol: