Snapdragon Doubles...do they make sense?

[jtfanclub]

The auction has gone 1♣ 1♥ 1♠ to you.

 

A snapdragon double, by my understanding, shows 2 or 3 hearts and 5+ diamonds, and let's say 8+ hcp.

 

This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

The most essential information that partner needs on a hand like this is whether I have two or three hearts, in my opinion. He is an overwhelming favorite to have exactly 5 hearts, and knowing that I have "two or three" isn't going to help him decide whether to bid, and neither is knowing that I have a diamond suit.

 

Some would argue that this is hypocritical, because I would bid 2♥ with 2 or 3 hearts and a weak hand. However, in that case I'm trying to jam the bidding to a large extent because I think they own the hand while at the same time revealing as little as possible because, well, they own the hand. With a snapdragon double, you have enough HCP that there's a decent chance that you should be competing, the X *increases* their amount of room, not decreases it, and you have the count to make it likely that you should compete, and in fact game for your side is not out of the question.

 

On the auction listed, it seems like bidding 2♠ with 3 hearts and 5 diamonds and 8+ hcp would be a valid system, or perhaps 2NT. You reasonably expect to end up at the three level regardless of your bid now, so why not jam the auction as much as possible? On the other hand, with two card support, neither bid would be safe. So I do not understand the call that is the safest and uses the least space being used for something that doesn't tell partner what he most needs to know.

 

Unless I missed something...but what?

[Apollo81]

snapdragon is really for hands with just two card support for partners overcall

[kenrexford]

I cannot remember the pure definition of a snapdragon double, but I also seem to recall 2-card with five pieces.

 

However, I can understand several nuance agreements being possible:

 

1. Maybe snapdragon can logically show 2-3 cards but no top honor (A/K), good diamonds; somewhat lead-directional? You expect to play 2♥ most often.

2. Maybe snapdragon can logically include 3-card support when the hand is swan-like (5+ diamonds, rather than specifically 5)?

[ralph23]

I think the def of Snapdragon is that it shows a "tolerance" (i.e. two pieces) for overcaller's suit. Maybe it shows 2 or 3, and there is some info on the Net that suggests that, but that seems like a really bad idea to me... On the other hand if it promises 3 pieces and a good five-bagger in the 4th suit, with 8+ points, then I might like it :-)

 

We play Rosenkrantz which is pretty pedestrian but works pretty well when partner has overcalled on two high honors in his suit.

 

What about Rosensnap, showing all of (1) three pieces, (2) a high honor in p's suit and (3) a good five-cards in the 4th suit, with (4) 8+ HCP ? :D :D .

 

Oh my, next we'll have Reverse Rosensnap :rolleyes:

[Apollo81]

snapdragon is really for hands with just two card support for partners overcall

xxx KJ10xx should prolly snapdragon

 

KQ xxxxx should prolly just raise

 

get it?

[SoTired]

with 3 cards support for overcaller's major, you generally raise rather than bid snapdragon. Normally, you only snapdragon with 3 is when your suit is major and overcallers suit is minor

 

But don't you think it wiser to know a convention before disparaging it?

[jtfanclub]

with 3 cards support for overcaller's major, you generally raise rather than bid snapdragon. Normally, you only snapdragon with 3 is when your suit is major and overcallers suit is minor

 

But don't you think it wiser to know a convention before disparaging it?

I told what I understood the definition to be, based upon various links you can see on the other thread. I even qualified it with 'As I understand it'.

 

I then said that made no sense to me.

 

If you feel that was disparaging, then I'm sorry.

 

However, I think it's more useful than asking 'what is a snapdragon double', which at best is going to get me a regurgitation of those links and at worst a discussion about some nuance that I really don't care about, such as the strength of the side suit. The more focused the question, the more useful the answer.

[glen]

Although snapdragon is a popular expert agreement here, and makes sense, I believe it is better to play double as “values and no good bid”, which opens the call to a variety of hands that need to find out more about overcaller’s hand at a relatively low level of bidding.

[TimG]

The auction has gone 1♣ 1♥ 1♠ to you.

 

A snapdragon double, by my understanding, shows 2 or 3 hearts and 5+ diamonds, and let's say 8+ hcp.

If the auction starts (1♣)-1♦-(1♠)-? now the double to show five hearts and 2-3 diamonds makes some sense, doesn't it?

 

As I learned snapdragon, it shows a tolerance for partner's suit, usually 2 card support. Whether you raise directly with three-card support and five in the unbid suit is probably a matter of whether you hold an unbid major and whether partner's suit is a major.

[awm]

There are also some advantages to playing reverse snapdragon, where a double shows the fourth suit and no particular fit for partner, whereas bidding the fourth suit promises tolerance for partner's suit. For example:

 

(1♣)-1♦-(1♠)-X/2♥

 

If advancer has no fit for diamonds, we want to stay low in case overcaller is short in hearts. We could well do best by playing in 1NT or 2♦ or even defending 1♠X. All of these are easier to do if we start with double. On the other hand, if advancer has a diamond fit (say 3♦ and 5♥) then it's to our advantage to up the ante on the opponents (make it hard for them to rebid clubs for example) and we should be pretty safe at the level of 2♥ or above. It's unlikely we will want to play the hand below 2♥ anyway.

[jtfanclub]

There are also some advantages to playing reverse snapdragon, where a double shows the fourth suit and no particular fit for partner, whereas bidding the fourth suit promises tolerance for partner's suit.

Oooh, I like that. That makes way too much sense. It's also nice because the X isn't forcing, which adds a level of extra pressure to the opponents.

 

So why is that 'reverse' snapdragon? What's the downside?

[jdonn]

So why is that 'reverse' snapdragon?  What's the downside?

Just off my head, one is that the 4th suit may go higher than partners suit

 

1♣ 1♥ 2♦ 2♠

 

in which case that should be the bid denying such tolerance. I suppose you could distinguish between the cases, but the odds of a misunderstanding for a relatively marginal gain dont really seem worth it.

 

I think the real reason it is normally played this way around is just that between double and bidding the 4th suit, double is the conventional bid whereas bidding the 4th suit is only conventional by negative inference. So whoever came up with it just intuitively gave the conventional bid the conventional meaning, or the meaning for the type of hand he was trying to show.

[keylime]

I used to play Snapdragon doubles, but decided to not use them and instead play transfer advances to get lead directional indicators (when possible).