Question for third and fifth leaders.

[mike777]

For those of you that play some version of third and fifth leads versus suits, do you lead third best from 6 cards so partner knows you have an even number?

[ArtK78]

Yes.

 

This method of leading is called 3rd and 5th, but it is actually 3rd best from an even number of cards, lowest from an odd number of cards.

 

So you lead 3rd best from 3, 4, 6 and 8 but 5th best from 5 and 7th best from 7.

[Walddk]

So you lead 3rd best from 3, 4, 6 and 8 but 5th best from 5 and 7th best from 7.

Maybe you do, I don't. I even have a rhyme which makes it easy to remember:

 

Third from three or four

Fifth from five or more

 

The Rules of 10 (5th) and 12 (3rd) are not a North American invention. Although they date back to the days of whist, they were introduced to bridge by Welith and Wenneberg from Sweden.

 

Roland

[MickyB]

I do the same as Art, and understood this to be standard.

[mikeh]

I do the same as Roland, without the poetry :)

 

I don't like the idea of 3rd from 6, even tho I recognize that it removes some ambiguity, because the 3rd spot may be important: KJ9432, for example... do I really want to lead the 9? Put me down for the 3.

[jdonn]

I think it's actually two entirely different lead conventions. If you play 3rd and 5th you lead third from 3 or 4, fifth from at least 5. If you play 3rd and low you lead 3rd from any even number (except a doubleton, duh) and low from any odd number. So in the first case you lead 5th from 5, 6, and 7. In the second case you lead 5th from, 5, 3rd from 6, and 7th from 7.

 

In the crowds in which I run, 3rd and low is assumed. Especially if you happen to have bid the suit or something, it seems useful to distinguish to partner at once whether you have 5 or 6, or 6 or 7. When the suit is that long I am not too worried about wasting a useful spot card with a 3rd best lead. In a 4 card suit I'm much more concerned, and have even tried leading low from something like QT83 out of worry that the 8 would somehow blow a trick.

 

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that some people who play third and low lazily refer to it as third and fifth.

[Guest Jlall]

I also thought leading third from 6 was standard. It seems clearly better in theory as it removes ambiguity as to whether you have 5 or 6 which is usually hard to read otherwise.

[Finch]

I think it's actually two entirely different lead conventions. If you play 3rd and 5th you lead third from 3 or 4, fifth from at least 5. If you play 3rd and low you lead 3rd from any even number (except a doubleton, duh) and low from any odd number. So in the first case you lead 5th from 5, 6, and 7. In the second case you lead 5th from, 5, 3rd from 6, and 7th from 7.

 

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that some people who play third and low lazily refer to it as third and fifth.

Yes.

 

I play 3rd and low, which is much, much more common than "3rd and 5th" round here, and is commonly referred to, incorrectly as "3rd and 5th"

[Edmunte1]

Usually 3rd is OK from 6, and sometimes when third is a pretty important card (let's say 9+) i lead 4th. Fifth is too ambigous (only one small card missing,can be easily hidden by opps), and anyway rule of 10-12, similar with rule of 11, are usually useless. The importance to lead 3rd or 4th is that it removes quickly the ambiguity about the number the cards in the suit, considering that is much easier to deduct from bidding if you have 4 or 6 cards in the suit

[ArtK78]

I do not believe there are two different lead conventions. To the best of my knowledge, those who play 3rd and 5th best are actually playing 3rd from even and lowest from odd. Those who play 3rd best from 3 or 4 and 5th best from 5 or longer are doing so based on a misunderstanding of the rationale of the lead convention and also a mis-presentation of the convention on convention cards.

 

If I remember correctly, 3rd and 5th (3rd and lowest) leads were first presented by the now defunct Bridge Journal and were part of what became known as Journalist Leads, along with Rusinow Leads and 10 or 9 promising zero or two higher honors against notrump contracts.

[TimG]

I do not believe there are two different lead conventions. To the best of my knowledge, those who play 3rd and 5th best are actually playing 3rd from even and lowest from odd. Those who play 3rd best from 3 or 4 and 5th best from 5 or longer are doing so based on a misunderstanding of the rationale of the lead convention and also a mis-presentation of the convention on convention cards.

But, if they're doing it, isn't it a lead convention?

[ralph23]

The Rules of 10 (5th) and 12 (3rd) are not a North American invention. Although they date back to the days of whist, they were introduced to bridge by Welith and Wenneberg from Sweden.

 

Roland

OK, but surely the Rule of 11 was invented by Americans, wasn't it ? Don't tell me we haven't invented ANYTHING !!! :( :D

 

Seriously it's interesting because I thought 4th best (and its counterpart the Rule of 11) was the old whist rule that was observed by everyone in whist days, and that 3rd and 5th (so-called) was a relatively modern invention.

[whereagles]

3rd from 6 is great when opening leader overcalled or opened an undisciplined weak 2 (which can be 5 or 6 cards NV). If pard leads a high or low spot, you get to know the exact count immediately.

[skjaeran]

According to the Encyclopedia experts in North America and many other parts of the world abandoned the traditional 4th-best lead during the 70's and 80's, adobting the 3rd/5th lead. The Encyclopedia say that you lead 3rd from 3 and four, 5th from longer suits.

 

This lead seems to have evolved from what's been standard in Norway since the late 50's after players in Oslo started playing what's been later known as standard count. They also gave count on lead, leading high-low from an even number of cards and low-high from an odd number.

 

The standard lead in Norway is thus to lead 3rd from 3 or 4, lowest from 5 or 7 (or even 9 if that ever happens) and normally 4th from 6. The count aspect of the lead is considered more important than conforming to easy rules of the thumb (like rule of 11 and rule of 10/12, although these rules still apply).

[ceeb]

For those of you that play some version of third and fifth leads versus suits, do you lead third best from 6 cards so partner knows you have an even number?

Yes, normally 3rd from 6.

 

The reason for the method, as opposed to old-fashioned 4th best, is surely to avoid the ambiguity of low from both 3 & from 4. Since therefore the goal is to give a clear count signal, give a clear count signal.

 

Think of the method as an extension of current count. If the 3rd from 6 is too valuable to waste, do the best you can, probably the 4th best one.

[Impact]

Yes, I play as Skaeran suggests - and I think Vinje codified the reasons and advantages of precisely 4th from 6 (when combined with 3rd & 5th) as both clarifying the count position for defending partner, while usually providing little solace for declarer.

 

It is another of the instances of people adopting a "standard rule" with a simplification instead of the the full ratio.

 

regards

[pclayton]

I play 3/5 with Brian in all cases and I'm not wild about it, especially against a suit. Frequently we dont have a clue about partner's suit length. 3/lo is more effective.

 

David Weiss (who plays in our club now) advocates 'parity leads' which means 'as high a spot as possible from even' / low from odd. I'm not sure I like this.

[benlessard]

IMHO parity leads (en pair impair in France or 3rd and low) in suits contract and attitude leads in NT is the way to go especially against strong declarer.