a few bidding sequences

[Rossoneri]

1x(1y)1z(2y)X Should this be pen or t/o?

1x(1y)1z(2y)p(p)X Should this be pen or t/o?

 

When do you want to play X as penalty at MPs?

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

 

a. 1♣ open by me, and 1♥ overcall on my left.

 

Partner bids 1♠ and advancer bids 2♥.

 

Double by me (opener) is support X, showing 3-card ♠ support for partner. I don't know anyone who doesn't play it this way, I don't think (except some intermediate players). {NB I already know partner has 5+ pieces as he didn't make a negative double}

 

b. Same as above except I (95% of the time) lack 3♠ and don't have anything to write home about, so I pass and partner reopens with a double. Clearly it's not purely penalty but "competitive" -- we call it a "do the right thing" double. I may bid 2♠ with a doubleton (partner may have a six-bagger), or otherwise use my imagination. Partner will be surprised if I pass.

[skjaeran]

1x(1y)1z(2y)X Should this be pen or t/o?

1x(1y)1z(2y)p(p)X Should this be pen or t/o?

 

When do you want to play X as penalty at MPs?

The first should be a support double. If you don't like them it shows extra strenght and more often than not the unbid suit.

The second should show extra strenght.

 

I seldom use pure penalty doubles when opponents have supported. Doubles then "always" is of the competitive kind, showing extras or maximum, often some defence and ask partner to do the right thing. Leaving in the double is the best decision 20-35% of the time I guess.

[Rossoneri]

For the first sequence I suggested support X and partner raised this point: you already showed 5 cards in suit z so why not just bid 2z with 3 card support? (8 card fit)

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

 

It's true that opener knows that responder has a 5+ bagger in ♠ (assuming the overcall was in ♥).

 

But it's still very useful for responder to know the opener's trump length ... either 3 or 4. The support double accomplishes this very well and positions the responder to compete intelligently using the LOTT if he is so inclined.

 

Also it makes support doubles easier to play, because this situation only arises in two specific auctions: 1♣ - (1♥) - 1♠, and 1♦ - (1♥) - 1♠.

 

After a 1♦ overcall, both 1♥ and 1♠ only promise 4 pieces. But responder can have a long major suit here as well. So you want to use support double here, don't you?

 

And do you want to play them ON after a 1♦ overcall and OFF after a 1♥ overcall ? And when they're OFF, then what is double anyhow ? Penalty seems fatuous.

 

When in doubt, opt for the Simple Solution.

[Rossoneri]

♣♦♥♠

 

It's true that opener knows that responder has a 5+ bagger in ♠ (assuming the overcall was in ♥).

 

But it's still very useful for responder to know the opener's trump length ... either 3 or 4. The support double accomplishes this very well and positions the responder to compete intelligently using the LOTT if he is so inclined.

 

Also it makes support doubles easier to play, because this situation only arises in two specific auctions: 1♣ - (1♥) - 1♠, and 1♦ - (1♥) - 1♠.

 

After a 1♦ overcall, both 1♥ and 1♠ only promise 4 pieces. But responder can have a long major suit here as well. So you want to use support double here, don't you?

 

And do you want to play them ON after a 1♦ overcall and OFF after a 1♥ overcall ? And when they're OFF, then what is double anyhow ? Penalty seems fatuous.

 

When in doubt, opt for the Simple Solution.

With 3 one can bid 2 directly,

With 4 one can bid 3 directly,

With good values and support one can make a cuebid

 

FYI my partner and I play 1♣(1♦)1♥/♠ as 5 carders.

 

I didn't ask for the simple solution, I am asking for the optimal solution.

[ralph23]

Actually what you asked was, when do you play X as penalty. Occam's Razor states that the simplest solution is preferred, other things being equal.

 

I suppose if partner opens 1♣, and you have 2♠ 4♥ 3♦ 4♣, you therefore double over a 1♦ overcall.... To me (and also to most authors who write on negative doubles I think), the negative double over a 1♦ overcall shows both majors. So I don't think I can help you. Good luck.

[awm]

Elianna and I like to play both these doubles as takeout-oriented. This normally includes:

 

(1) 0-2 cards in the "enemy" suit

(2) Usually 3 cards in partner's suit, but occasionally honor-doubleton.

(3) At least 3 cards in the fourth suit, often 4.

(4) At least 4 cards in the original minor, often 5.

 

We play the same in the auction 1X-(P)-1Y-(2W).

 

There are several advantages to this over playing support doubles, including:

 

(1) When one hand has a trump stack, you are virtually guaranteed to be able to penalize because double is takeout from both sides of the table. When one person's double is support and the other double is "cards" it can be hard to penalize from either side.

 

(2) It enables you to find a fit in the fourth suit when your best fit is there.

 

(3) It clarifies many subsequent auctions which most people who play support doubles haven't discussed. For example, say responder bids opener's suit or a new suit after the double. Is this forcing? Is it natural, or a game try for the "supported" suit? Obviously you could come to some agreement, but everyone knows how to respond to a takeout double (so less discussion required).

 

(4) It eliminates the silliness when you are "forced" to make a support double on a hand where you would never normally raise (i.e. 4333 hands). Of course, some people don't play that agreement, but in this case it will be hard to convince partner you have three card support later in the auction after failing to make a support double.

 

(5) This is more of a concern when opponents have not raised a suit (i.e. 1♣-P-1♠-2♥), but you avoid rescuing them from their six card fit in order to play your seven card fit, when opener makes a support double and responder doesn't realize that opener has four cards in the "enemy" suit to go with his own three-card holding.

[ArtK78]

If the first auction was 1C-(1D)-1M-(2D)-x, the double is a support double. The 1M bid only promises 4 cards.

 

If the first auction was 1m-(1H)-1S-(2H)-x, the double is card showing. It is not support (why would you show a doubleton here opposite a known 5 card suit?) and it is not takeout, unless you play Snapdragon. And it rarely makes sense to double your opps for penalties at the two level when they have a fit.

 

The second auction is similar to 1m-(1H)-1S-(2H)-x. The double is card showing. Good hand, no obvious bid. Do something intelligent.