Takeout Double

[elwood913]

HI,

My partner and I play SAYC with 1NT overcall range of 15-18. I'm having trouble with hands like the following:

 

I'm sitting south with this hand and East deals and opens 1 Club.[hv=s=sk832hk1063dqjckq8]133|100|[/hv]

 

My inclination is to double for takeout, but I am constantly winding up in trouble in diamonds. But I feel I am too weak to overcall 1NT.

 

The considerations I see against the X are: I do not have shortness in the opponents suit, I have wasted strength in the opp suit (or perhaps better stated I am not very strong in the suits I am doubling for), I have a doubleton in one of the suits I am doubling for.

The considerations I see for the double are: I have a decent number of points, and I have 2 4-card majors my partner could bid.

In favor of the 1NT overcall are that it describes my hand fairly well and will allow us to find a fit in the majors, against is that I am a point or two shy of the requirement.

If both of these bids are flawed what else is there? I can't pass this hand, can I?

 

So what's best?

[awm]

You can pass this hand. I think that is the textbook (old school?) bid. If your diamonds were two small I think passing would be very popular, and having ♦QJ doesn't really improve your hand so much. Swap the diamonds and hearts and I think pass is quite clear.

 

Double on this hand is not horrible though, since partner will usually try to bid a major where possible. If partner has 3343 or the like, sometimes you will hear 1NT, and if partner has five diamonds then your doubleton honors are fine support.

 

While I like to bid 1NT occasionally on 14 points, I wouldn't do it with this hand. There are several negatives, including lousy texture (weak spots in the majors and QJ tight make this a bad 14, not even an average one) and the strong possibility of missing a major suit fit.

[the hog]

On this hand the fact that you have both Ms means you really should x. I agree though that the hand has defects.

[mikeh]

There is nothing wrong with passing, and that would be my advice on this hand.

 

You have bad majors: yes, 4=4 is a shape where you want to bid, but the suits are not very good. In itself, this is not especially important, but, when combined with the other defects, plays a role.

 

Your diamond holding is horrible. Partner is entitled to bid on the basis that you hold 3 cards (or more) in all unbid suits. QJ tight is grossly overvalued when you assign it '3 points'. It MAY become a valuable holding later, if (for example) partner were to voluntarily bid diamonds, without prior encouragement from you.

 

Your club holding, altho well positioned, is not great either. One reason we like high cards is their ability to win the early tricks in the suit, creating length winners for our smaller cards. That won't usually happen here: it is unlikely that partner has 4+ clubs and even when he does, rho may match the length.

 

And we have NO aces... Aces are important: they are worth more than they are accorded in the 4321 scale... an utter lack of Aces is a defect.

 

So you have a marginal hand, and this was, traditionally, a clear pass.

 

Nowadays, especially at matchpoints, many players double here... and there are days when I might.. but I do truly think that passing is the winning call here... especially if you can count on partner to be aggressive if the auction proceeds P P.

 

BTW, I increasingly find that many less-experienced players simply don't understand that pass does not deny a good hand.. it denies a biddable hand, and those two propositions are not the same, at all.

 

As for overcalling 1N: if you feel any urge to do so on this hand, seek psychiatric attention immediately: you are suffering from an irrational urge to overbid.

[SoTired]

dbl - no question. A good partner will have a 4-card major or a 5-card diam suit to bid.

[BebopKid]

dbl - no question. A good partner will have a 4-card major or a 5-card diam suit to bid.

yes

[Guest Jlall]

I love X

[Quantumcat]

I agree with pass: partner will reopen if west passes and NS have anything, if west bids 1 diamond and east bids 1NT, you can double for takeout (or N might double before east) N might even overcall a major after west's one diamond if you're lucky. If west says 1H or 1S north will double with 4 of the other major and a couple of points (if all of east, west and you don't have diamonds, north has got to have some that will allow him to double) I can't see how pass can possibly put you in the wrong. But, a double right away will land you into doodoo when N bids 3D or the like...

 

What am I missing that makes doubling right away better than pass?

[the hog]

What am I missing that makes doubling right away better than pass?

Not "better" or worse, but rather a different approach and philosophy. Some players like to get in and out of the auction quickly. The US style seems to be to be more conservative at first and to balance more.

[jtfanclub]

What am I missing that makes doubling right away better than pass?

What do you plan to say after:

 

1♣-P-2♣-P

P

 

A lot easier to bid this hand early than to balance late. Of course, if you want to pass both times....

 

One thing I would not expect is for your partner to rescue you. You have too many points for it to be likely for your partner to have a sandwich bid.

 

I don't really have an opinion on X vs. pass. My solution would get laughed out of the forums (and trust me, it has been). Suffice to say, they both have flaws.

[Guest Jlall]

I agree with pass: partner will reopen if west passes and NS have anything, if west bids 1 diamond and east bids 1NT, you can double for takeout (or N might double before east) N might even overcall a major after west's one diamond if you're lucky. If west says 1H or 1S north will double with 4 of the other major and a couple of points (if all of east, west and you don't have diamonds, north has got to have some that will allow him to double) I can't see how pass can possibly put you in the wrong. But, a double right away will land you into doodoo when N bids 3D or the like...

 

What am I missing that makes doubling right away better than pass?

lol dammit I wrote out a 500 word response to this and then the computer crashed.

 

The jist of it was

 

A) By bidding early you avoid the need to guess later whether to balance/prebalance when the opps have already described much of their hands and are ready to double (like your proposed 1C p 1D p 1N X). It's much less dangerous to bid early and then get out.

 

:P You avoid missing games. Sometimes, believe it or not, the opps respond when they dont have much and open light.

 

C) Your assertation that partner will X with 4 of the other major and a couple of points after 1C p 1M is silly. This is a takeout X just like ours, it shows the other 2 suits and a near opening bid. He won't just be in there with a 4342 9 count, or a 4333 12 count.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,,

 

Pass.

 

#1 You are correct, the hand is to weak for a 1NT

overcall.

#2 But the hand, given the shape, is also to weak for

a t/o double, but this is a style issue.

There are player, stronger than me, who would make a

t/o, but for those players, the t/o would just promise the

mayors.

My advice: Ignore HCP points in their suit, but add points

for shortage in their suit, if this will lead you to opening

strength (with at least 3 card support for all other suits)

than make a t/o.

In the given instance, the above mentioned advice will value

the hand as 9HCP, and given QJ in diamonds bad 9HCP.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

C) Your assertation that partner will X with 4 of the other major and a couple of points after 1C p 1M is silly. This is a takeout X just like ours, it shows the other 2 suits and a near opening bid. He won't just be in there with a 4342 9 count,

<snip>

a style issue :P

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I would certainly double. Partner will bid a 4-card major if he has one, certainly bypassing a 4-card diamonds and maybe bypassing a 5-card. 1♦ in a 4-2 fit may not be that bad and 2♦ in a 4-2 fit is extremely unlikely.

 

Pass is not unreasonable, though.

 

With a much better ♥ suit you might consider 1♥ with this shape.

[Guest Jlall]

<snip>

C) Your assertation that partner will X with 4 of the other major and a couple of points after 1C p 1M is silly. This is a takeout X just like ours, it shows the other 2 suits and a near opening bid. He won't just be in there with a 4342 9 count,

<snip>

a style issue :P

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

How light you can double is definitely a style issue, saying partner will always X with 4 of the other major and "a couple of points" is just wrong unless you play the worst style ever.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

C) Your assertation that partner will X with 4 of the other major and a couple of points after 1C p 1M is silly. This is a takeout X just like ours, it shows the other 2 suits and a near opening bid. He won't just be in there with a 4342 9 count,

<snip>

a style issue :P

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

How light you can double is definitely a style issue, saying partner will always X with 4 of the other major and "a couple of points" is just wrong unless you play the worst style ever.

The remark was directed at "How light", and

I agree, a double by partner promises at least

44 in the unbid suits.

 

I should have further censored the quote I used.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe