han Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 [hv=d=s&v=e&s=sxhxxdaqxxcajxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP1C - (1S) - Dbl - 4S??[/hv] What's your call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 4NT. Showing both minors with longer clubs. I am not defending 4S on this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I'd pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 pass, 4N over another X, the usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 I like pass here. Two problem with bidding: (1) Partner may take us for a better hand if we bid. There are many hands where 5m makes or is a good sacrifice, but too often partner is going to raise us to six. Obviously partner has to give us some leeway to bid with shape in this auction, especially at these colors, but this dead minimum opener without even a spade void seems like too much. (2) The aces in this hand provide a good bit of defense. With a hand that really offers no tricks against 4♠ it is much more tempting to bid -- say something like x xx KQJx KQJTxx where your suits are much better but you don't have aces. The point is that on the actual hand you don't need much from partner to set 4♠, whereas you need a lot to make 5m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 pass, 4N over another X, the usual. Is this a pass and pull (showing a better hand) situation, or does that not apply because our pass is not forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 pass, 4N over another X, the usual. Is this a pass and pull (showing a better hand) situation, or does that not apply because our pass is not forcing? right, pass and pull as a slam try cannot apply if pass isn't forcing (and it clearly isn't here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I like pass here more than 4nt; I do not want to hang pard for doubling on five hearts with quacky values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I like pass here more than 4nt; I do not want to hang pard for doubling on five hearts with quacky values. I also don't want to be hung by PD when he can take 2 tricks on defence (or possibly 3 and is whacking 4♠) combined with my 2 aces when we can't make 5m. Pass.. neilkaz .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 The pass seems really obvious. Is this here because partner has xx Axxx Kxxxxx x? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I can see the case for pass but I'm sure I would bid 4N at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Must pass... arrrrr.... this is not the time to flaunt your silly agreements.... oh no... who put that 4NT card on the table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Obvious pass.Why on earth should I bid anything now?- 4♠ might go down, when we can't make anything higher.- 5m might go down a lot.- Partner is still there.If partner makes a card-showing double, I'll bid 4NT. We've got a good chance of either making or finding a good save.If partner passes, fine. We might still set them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Pass For me partner has shown some values and hearts, so my chances at this point are better in defence. If partner doubles again is that takeout or good defensive values? At the vulnerability I think I'll pass and take the chance I'm missing a slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Keep in mind that this is IMPs. I would rather bid 4NT and find that both 4S and 5 of our minor go off one trick than pass and find out that both 4S and 5 of our minor make. And I am wrong to bid only if both 4S and 5 of our minor do not make. If either makes, it is right to bid (I am assuming that neither 4S nor 5 of our minor go down much). From years of experience, I say bid one more at IMPs in a competitive auction with distributional hands. More matches have been lost by defending at both tables on this type of hand than by declaring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Bidding here is madness. Pass and pull to 4N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 I agree that bidding 4N immediately is insane. I also agree that we should pull partner's hoped-for double, but I would have liked to see more discussion of why we shouldn't be trying to collect 500 against our 400 or 200 against our-50, etc. When we hold 2 Aces, even with shape, we surely expect to beat them most of the time, and there will be hands on which we can't quite make 11 tricks: QJx KQxx Kxxx xx..... would we pass 4♠ with that hand, as partner? Heck, make it Kx KQJx Kxxx xxx It may be that this kind of hand is inconsistent with the opps' bidding. Too bad this is (nearly) impossible to simulate, due to issues re opps' hands and partner's calls on various hand types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Mike, I actually pass way more than most people in these auctions (over the second X), but I think it looks right to bid. I know you know as well as I do when the red/white opps go to 4S they will likely have a lot of shape and I don't think a double game swing would be out of the question even with our aces if there is some distribution out. I also think 400 instead of 200 is quite likely which is (almost) as big of a swing as 200 into -50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 When I made my choice to pass I was considering two of the relevant hand shapes for partner: 34332452 Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double? Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 When I made my choice to pass I was considering two of the relevant hand shapes for partner: 34332452 Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double? Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand. nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 :) PassDoesn't anyone construct hypothetical generic hands for partner anymore?Like - the perfect 8 HCP or a random 10 HCP. Perfect 8: 4♠ could make, but unlikely-we are down one or more in ♣ or ♦xxAxxxJxxxKxx Random 10: We are down one at least - they do not rate to make 4♠QxxQ10xxKxxxKxx Other Hands: We almost never make 11 tricks - they occasionally make 10 LOTT: 18 or 19 tricks - We usually make 9 or 10 - only the our 9 when total tricks is 19 combination favors bidding on. If I pass, and partner has something unusual, then HE can take a push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 :) PassDoesn't anyone construct hypothetical generic hands for partner anymore?Like - the perfect 8 HCP or a random 10 HCP. Perfect 8: 4♠ could make, but unlikely-we are down one or more in ♣ or ♦xxAxxxJxxxKxx Random 10: We are down one at least - they do not rate to make 4♠QxxQ10xxKxxxKxx Other Hands: We almost never make 11 tricks - they occasionally make 10 LOTT: 18 or 19 tricks - We usually make 9 or 10 - only the our 9 when total tricks is 19 combination favors bidding on. If I pass, and partner has something unusual, then HE can take a push.I suspect that most experts will not try to construct hands for partner until and unless we have sufficient information to allow us to do so with some precision: which is not the case here, at all. So we pass (the vote is 11-3 to pass 4♠) on general principles: we need significant help from partner to make an 11 trick contract playable, and he will not usually pass 4♠ if he has that help. We then rely upon the sanity of our red v white opps to deduce that, opposite our shape, his help will likely make playing an 11 trick minor game more rewarding than defending a 10 trick 4♠ contract when the opps are surely bidding on extreme shape (at least, the 4♠ bidder is). One problem with hand construction is that most of us suffer from an inability to act as our own hand generator, without being biased by our hopes and fears. We can overcome this in certain narrow situations. Thus, when considering whether to make a slam move in a constructive auction, I will consider whether a perfect minimum opposite makes slam good and whether a poor maximum makes the slam try dangerous... maybe we will lack 5-level safety. But I wouldn't engage in hand construction here, or even after his double... in fact, I thought of whether a simulation would help evaluate the pass or 4N decision over partner's hypothetical double, and decided not to do it because of problems establishing the constraints for the sim. If I can't even program them into DealMaster, I sure can't programme myself at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 The pass seems really obvious. Is this here because partner has xx Axxx Kxxxxx x? No. It's here because I bid 4NT but then felt bad about it and wanted to know for sure. Having been called insane and what more I still feel bad (:) ) but hopefully I won't make the same mistake again. 4NT worked fine at the table but pass and pull would also have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I consider 4NT here to be automatic at IMPs. And I have been called insane by better players, so I don't take it as an insult. To find out that 4NT would have worked at the table is no surprise to me. It is consistent with all of the actions taken in the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I don't mind being wrong. Why is at all up to the minors hand? Partner makes a second double - why doesn't he bid if defending is wrong? What did I show when I passed the previous round? There's too much unexplained dogmatism sometimes (vote yes or nope). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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