the blame game

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=a&n=saj2hj96dkt8cq932&s=s874hq32da74ca864]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     Pass  Pass  Pass

 1♦    Dbl   1♠    Pass

 1NT   Pass  Pass  2♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[sceptic]

I voted both, as I have probably bid North hands and south hands similarly over the years and got my self in some amusing positions, I would like to crawl out of but can't

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

North.

 

I find Souths bid pretty interresting,

hopefully a nice way of saying sick,

but South is lucky, I hate Norths bid

more, ... and I mean a whole lot more.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

North's double is very bad. The hand is too weak and she doesn't even have a 4-card major. It takes at least full opening strength to double with a 3-card in opps' suit.

 

Partner is a passed hand, it's IMPs and game all. This is the worst possible situation for getting involved in the partscore battle.

 

South must do something over 1♠. I would try 1NT. Too bad it seems to get wrong-sided. It would be nice if dbl showed this hand but it doesn't. If East was unpassed South could pass based on the theory that it may become easier in next round, but with East being a passed hand there's a real risk that 1♠ is passed out.

 

South was lucky to get a second chance. I think a dbl now is penalty and if so, that choice is outstanding. Even if North does not take dbl as penalties, at least it is more flexible than 2♥. Otherwise 2♣. 2♥ is pointless of course. Even defending 1NT undoubled is much more attractive.

[Echognome]

I vote both. North's double is horrible and South's 2♥ got what is deserved. North could easily be 4=3=2=4. If south wanted to compete, what's wrong with bidding his longest suit? Or simply doubling himself.

[Gerben42]

100% South. I have sympathy for North's Dbl even though it is not everyone's choice.

 

I don't understand 2♥. At all. Partner did never promise 4♥ for his Dbl, he may have only 3. He knew he was in danger of violating Burn's Law of Total Trumps, and... bid it anyway? <faint>

 

Conclusion: North is an optimist, South is a masochist.

[the hog]

Totally agree with gnome. The double is a truly bad bid - you have sterile distribution and no decent suits. South's 2H bid is pretty poor bid as well. Why not be happy to defend 1NT? It looks to me like it is probably 1 off on the C lead. IF you make 2H you gain exactly nothing if 1NT is 1 off: +110 vs +100.

[skjaeran]

75% north, the double is just terrible.

100% south, passing 1♠ is bad, 2♥ is outrageous.

Oh, it adds up to 175%? Just tells how bad I think the bidding was. B)

[gwnn]

i blame opps for forgetting their Axes at home.

 

btw I thoroughly agree with Matt.

[foo]

North,All,IMP,

AJ2 J96 KT8 Q932

874 Q32 A74 A864

 

West  North East  South

 

 -     Pass  Pass  Pass

 1♦    Dbl   1♠    Pass

 1NT   Pass  Pass  2♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Both. 100%.

 

1= As other have said, the X is HORRIBLE.

You should have at least one 4cM for a minimum T/O X here.

(that is one that is not strong enough to X then rebid either NT or a suit).

This 9 loser hand is a sub-minimum for a T/O X +and+ is too short in the majors.

 

2= Advancer's pass of (1S) when holding invitational values is also bad.

Since the T/O X has promised length, and therefore usually values, in the Majors, S should bid NT to show values and D's stopped.

I could go along with downgrading the hand and only bidding 1N with it, but if you pass with this like you would with a zero count, pd will never be able to field it.

 

3= Having underbid their hand on the previous round, S then overbids their hand on the next round. S has only 3 H's when N has only shown 4 +and+ is a 4333; which means there will be no ruffs in the short hand.

 

 

NS both need to review / study T/O X's.

[SoTired]

both - although South's 2H is ridiculous.

 

North does not have a t/o dbl, even tho a passed hand. Trust partner to bid with a 5-card major.

 

South's 2H is disgusting. LHO does not have spades, so may have hearts. Even if North had 4♥, a 4-3 fit with the shortness in the 4 hand does not play well. South's hand is suited to NT... so pass and defend. 1N is a difficult contract to make.

 

Too many players think that winning the auction = winning the hand.

[helene_t]

Oops sorry didn't notice that North was apassed hand as well. That makes the dbl slightly less bad, though still rather bad.

 

It also makes S's bidding slightly more acceptable. Pass on 1♠ is ok.

 

So only 90% for each. B)

[TimG]

2= Advancer's pass of (1S) when holding invitational values is also bad.

Invitational to what? The doubler is a passed hand.

[paulg]

I think North and South deserve each other. In fact, it is very fortuitous that they have found each other rather than causing this carnage in two (different) partnerships. They should congratulate themselves on reducing the conflict in the world today.

 

Paul

[inquiry]

Mostly south, so much mostly south, i voted south rather than both.

 

North's first pass is 100% correct.

 

South's first pass is 100% correct.

 

Norths double is agressive, but if he does not bid now, he is out of the auction, and he does have support for all three side suits. I would have passed, but as a passed hand, I don't throw too many stones at the double. This could be a little bit a bad bid, not terrible.

 

South;s pass of 1S seems timid to me. Two options, double as responsive, he has some decent values after all, or an honest 2 ♣'s now. South obviously wants to mix it up. South knows north has either good shape or about 11 hcp and support for the other suits. So while pass is not horrible, he had two ohter winning moves over 1♠, but only one if DBL of 1♠ was a psyche exposure (on this auction with two passed hand, even if you play dbl of 1♠ normally shows spades, here it should be responsive.

 

North's pass of 1NT is again, 100% correct

 

South's bid over 1NT of 2♥ is pitiful. He has several better options. A pass, a double (this has to be takeout, so you can get to hearts, or to clubs), or an honest 2♣'s. 2♥ had the flavor of a right idea (disturb their NT), but was too unilateral, as this hand shows.

 

So south could have stayed out of the auction and not punished partner, south could have bid clubs, or doubled at either of his second or third opportunity and found clubs. All north did was make a frisky takeout double as a passed hand. The vul and type of game was wrong for that bid, but it wasn't horrible and it should not have lead to the 3-3 fit. And 2♣ would have had some play assuming club king with opener, true need to find the heart ten well placed, but at least it has a chance, and passing 1NT probably gets a plus score too if the king of clubs is well placed.

[bid_em_up]

I agree with Ben.

 

Most, if not all, of the blame goes to South.

 

Yes, North's double is agressive. No, I don't like it. But considering that North is a passed hand, and can tolerate whatever partner bids, he is not expecting partner to hang him out to dry by making silly bids (such as bidding 3 card suits before a four card suit).

 

South can either double 1N (cards) or bid 2♣. I can't find the words to express how bad I think 2♥ is.

[pclayton]

Both.

 

Hopefully you have started to understand how wretched 4333's are.

[hotShot]

I think the blame goes to north. South has a better bid available, but 2♥ is by far not as bad as as north dbl.

 

Wouldn't north have opened or bid over 1♦ holding a 5cM with a 4c side suit and 11 HCP, or bid his 5cm (or over 1NT) holding 10 +HCP?

 

I would guess so.

 

With no agreement stated, i guess there is none. And if not agreed otherwise, this dbl should show a maximum pass and 2 places to play (4card suits). Since north is below opening strength, he should have some shape (e.g. ♦ shortage). (An unpassed hand could have HCP instead of shape!)

 

If north has 8(+) cards in 2 suits, an unbalanced hand, no 5cM and no 6cm the possible patterns are:

4405, 4315, 4225, 4414, 4423, 4324, 3424, 3415.

 

If we expect north to bid his 5cm over 1NT or over 1♦, we are left with:

4414, 4423, 4324, 3424.

 

Now 3 of 4 have a 4 card ♥ suit. If we think that a 4c♠ is a little more unlikely following opps bidding, a 4c♥ suit is even more likely.

 

Playing a 7 card fit on 2 level is usually ok.

[hrothgar]

One quick comment before I wander back to training class:

 

South made a decision to enter an auction where East / West haven't discovered any fit. This can be really dangerous. I'm much less likely to intervene in a non-fit auction. If I were to bid, I'm going to take a "safe" action and bid my longest/best suit (maybe double) rather than angle towards a major.

 

None of this should be constructed as to suggest that I like North's double.

[Guest Jlall]

If south wants to bid he should just X 1N. 2H is silly. North's X is very bad but not really in the same league of badness as the 2H bid.

[jillybean]

Ok I confess, the diabolical 2♥ was my mine. I’d lost interest in the game, expected partner to have the majors for the double and hoped for a 4-3 fit.

[neilkaz]

Some poor bidding by N-S here but I'll be gentle in the B/I forum. N's double with this 4333 11 count Red at IMPs after passing is just asking for trouble, noting he doesn't have a 4 card major and may misslead PD into competing incorrectly.

 

http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/knr.cgi?ha...Jx+J9x+KT8+Q9xx evalutes N's junk as 9.15 pts ! I'd consider it 10 pt and pass, but I can see where N wants to mix it up and fight for a part score, but if the opps get to game all this does is to tell the opps where most of the high cards are to aid their dummy play.

 

35% of the blame to N for what I consider to be a poor and risky double.

 

Now for South :lol: . The first pass in 3rd seat with a flat 10 count is good, inspite of 2 aces. I find nothing but trouble from straining to open flat junk in 3rd seat. Best to pass and hope for a pass out.

 

After the takeout double, and with my 10 count and expacting to hold have the deck in HCP, I'd bid 2♣ as South. For all we know, N may actually have ♣ since he failed to O/C in a major. Passing is not awful, but when you do, please plan what you'll do next round in P/O seat.

 

Now South's 2♥ is simply atrocious !! (and I am being kind) Stay out of 4-3 fits when flat and especially when competing for vul part score. So lucky someone didn't have AKxx and whack you (OK they missed a penalty X anyhow) and note that N may have only 3 card support.

 

I'd bid 2♣ as S in P/O seat but won't criticize a pass with a flat hand and about 20 combined HCP since you lose 90 if the opps make 1NT and gain 100 if they fail where as 2♣ could get whacked or go off two if N has poor support.

 

Katherine, you sig says to bid your hand, and that is what S should do here, by NOT bidding a 3 card suit. 65% blame to S.