Jump Shifts Over A Weak Two

[pbleighton]

Say 2D-P-3S. What do you think is standard practice (no discussion), and what do you play?

 

Peter

[kenberg]

Hopefully there has been enough discussion so that you know if 2D-pass-2S is forcing.

 

If 2D-pass-2S is forcing then I would expect 2D-pass-3S to be natural and forcing, stronger than bidding 2S and rebidding 3S.

 

If 2D-pass-2S is non-forcing I would expect 2D-pass-3S to be natural and non-forcing, but highly invitational.

 

I can't recall ever having this auction, so I am guessing. I have no idea how to compare either sequence with the alternative of bidding 2NT and then 3S. Probably I am about to find out! But w/o discussion, I would treat the bids as described above.

 

Ken

[bhall]

In original 2/1, Walsh and Swanson played the jump-shift as an asking bid in that suit. Cheapest notrump showed the protected K, otherwise the responses were "up the line," cheapest suit denying second-round control.

[Guest Jlall]

yeah control asking bids are useful if you play 2x as forcing. undiscussed I'd just bid something.

[Gerben42]

Control asking bids are probably the most useful agreement, undiscussed I'd guess fit jump though.

[helene_t]

Oh, I would think it was a fit-showing bid. Maybe CAB is better. Something to discuss with p (we're going to play a tourney this afternoon).

 

FWIW, in Muiderberg over 2♠ is natural an barely possitive, 3♠ is natural and encouraging, 4m are fit-showing in competition. Donno what they are in non-competition. 4♣ could b p/c.

[barmar]

The book Preempts from A to Z has lots of recommended asking bids after weak 2's and higher preempts. I don't remember any of the specifics, but I'll bet they use the jump shift for this.

[Finch]

If 2S is non-forcing, then 3S is natural and forcing (you have to have some way to force with spades)

 

If 2S is forcing, then I'd assume 3S shows spades & diamonds (fit)

[barmar]

If 2S is non-forcing, then 3S is natural and forcing (you have to have some way to force with spades)

I think it's pretty common to play that if a non-jump shift is non-forcing, you force by starting with an artificial 2NT (regardless of what it asks for) and then bidding your suit. So a jump shift need not be used for this.

[han]

I also play it as control asking bid. I remember it coming up only once in several years, but then it lead us to a diamond slam that would have been impossible to bid otherwise (for us).

[Fluffy]

I don't have an agreement, would take it as fit showing 5♠+4♦.

[jtfanclub]

Say 2D-P-3S. What do you think is standard practice (no discussion), and what do you play?

 

Peter

Thank God I don't generally play 2♦ as weak.

 

Assuming that 2♠ is forcing, I would have taken it as Splinter!

 

I still don't know what it means, but at least I won't take it to mean that.

[SoTired]

I really have no clue what 2D (p) 3S means or should mean. And, without thinking, a splinter seems a good choice. But if you think about it, a splinter makes no sense.

 

A splinter allows the splinter partner to re-evaluate their hand and discount honors in the splinter suit. But since the weak-2 bidder is weak with little strength outside the trump suit anyway, this re-evaluation won't produce useful results.

 

Normal splinter evaluation would make: xxx xx KQJxxx xx a slam hand; whereas, Kxx xx KQJxxx xx is not a slam hand. That does not make sense.

 

So either a fit jump or a control jump makes more sense.

[barmar]

Right, showing shortness in responder's hand is not likely to be productive. This is why most constructive bidding sequences after a weak 2 are based on some kind of asking structure. The preemptor is the one who is more likely to have useful shortness somewhere, so it would be better to ask for shortness than show it.

 

So, if the jump shift shows a fit or control, you could agree that if this improves opener's hand he can then bid a side suit to show shortness there. It does't make much sense for this to be a second suit (people sometimes open weak 2's with 6-5, but not often enough that I think you need to cater to it in the bidding, especially if the jump is a fit-jump). And the fact that the jump improved opener's hand usually means he has a fitting honor there, so it's not likely that the new suit would be a high-card control.

[jtfanclub]

Normal splinter evaluation would make: xxx xx KQJxxx xx a slam hand; whereas, Kxx xx KQJxxx xx is not a slam hand. That does not make sense.

My thought would be:

 

Kxx xx KQxxxx xx: play in 3NT

xxx xx KQJxxx xx: play in 5 diamonds

xxx Kx KQxxxx xx: play in 6 diamonds (or if the Kx is in clubs).

 

But maybe that's not a good way to play it.