How to bid to grand?

[twcho]

I am wondering why so many posts here suggested west to respond with 2♠ and then the partnership can explore slam with more space. For me, 2♠ is a vast underbid and east, upon hearing this rebid from partner, should not dream of slam possibility.

 

And if, as some posters suggested, 3♥ is construed as mini-splinter, how one can show ♣ stiff instead of ♥ stiff over 1♠?

[kenrexford]

I am wondering why so many posts here suggested west to respond with 2♠ and then the partnership can explore slam with more space. For me, 2♠ is a vast underbid and east, upon hearing this rebid from partner, should not dream of slam possibility.

This is the visualization problem on this hand, arising from quantitative bash thinking.

 

Responder has ♠AQJ10 ♥Axx ♦A10xx ♣xx

 

So, can slam be on opposite a mere 2♠call?

 

Well, let's imagine a very simple and very light hand for Opener. He is known to have four spades, and he usually has 4+ diamonds. How about something like:

 

♠Kxxx ♥xx ♦KQxxx ♣Ax?

 

This hand is well within parameters for a 2♠ raise, Opener having a mere 12 HCP's, no stiffs. Sure, a six-loser hand, but not every six-loser hand should be handled with a jump to 3♠, should it? I mean, isn't 12 HCP's, with +2 for shape, just a simple raise any more?

 

And yet, 12 tricks turns on diamonds behaving (3-1 at worst) and a 3-2 spade split. Not all that unreasonable. Make the diamonds KQJxx, still with two doubletons, and is everyone jumping to 3♠? The hand would be ♠Kxxx ♥xx ♦KQJxx ♣Ax. Nice, but 3♠?

 

How about a more jazzy hand?

 

♠Kxxx ♥x ♦Kxxxxx ♣Ax?

 

A mere 10-count now. Again, a six-loser hand, but really tenuous and probably not a universal jumping hand. However, slam looks fair, and the grand even looks reasonable. A mere 25 combined points.

 

Interesting to note, the six-loser hand opposite the four-cover hand somehow makes slam. This is not an uncommon phenomenon. When the partnership plays in a 4-4 fit having a 5-4 or 5-3, or even 6-3/6-4 on the side, the LTC estimate is low. These deals produce tricks, if the controls are present. Quantitative bash misses all of this.

 

So, whether 2♠ is a vast underbid or not, the slam should still be sought, IMO.

[skjaeran]

I think it's perhaps possible but very difficult to construct auctions to reach a grand that won't reach one if west has K9xx x KQJx AJxx, if someone is being honest with themself.

With my regular partner we'd start the bidding 1♦-1♠-3♥.

This sequence by opener shows 5+♦'s, 4♠'s and short ♥'s. Our 1♦ opening shows an unbalanced hand with 5+♦'s, unless 4441 with a singleton ♣. I'm aware that most americans would open your example hand 1♦, and thus might reach the grand lacking one trick.

 

Btw, I'd most probably open 1♣ in a standard system with your example hand too. Most Norwegians (far from all) would in fact.

[cherdano]

I think it's perhaps possible but very difficult to construct auctions to reach a grand that won't reach one if west has K9xx x KQJx AJxx, if someone is being honest with themself.

Why that? Opposite all keycards, the original hand needs >=3 hearts and good trumps, or a 5th spade, or another trick somewhere else to make grand good, your hand needs a lot more.

 

Arend

[kenrexford]

I think it's perhaps possible but very difficult to construct auctions to reach a grand that won't reach one if west has K9xx x KQJx AJxx, if someone is being honest with themself.

Why that? Opposite all keycards, the original hand needs >=3 hearts and good trumps, or a 5th spade, or another trick somewhere else to make grand good, your hand needs a lot more.

 

Arend

I think jdonn is right in this regard, to a point. Some auctions that some will have will reach a point where Responder, who is likely to be the decision-maker in many auctions, will be unable to know whether Opener has 4441 or 5431 as his pattern. That fifth club will be critical to the grand in many such auctions.

 

The difficult solution, however, seems to be that a 6♥ Last Train call almost always is available at the SOGOTP point, and in every context I have imagined the fifth club will be the reason for Opener to accept.

[ArcLight]

I don't understand the 1D-1S-3S auction. If you think that the hand is good enough for the 3-level then the 3H seems right.

Hannie,

 

Doesn't 1♦-1♠, 3♠ show a highly invitational hand, but is not forcing.

 

While: 1♦-1♠, 3♥ is a game forcing splinter in support of spades.

(Sinec 2♥ is a reverse , you don't need a jump shift)

 

Is opener really THAT strong, that they can force to game opposite a 6-7 HCP hand?

 

Responder could have something like

♠ Q x x x

♥ K x x

♦ x x

♣ K x x x

 

In this case, the diamond fit is huge, and those spades are quite nice.

I think it was just luck that the grand makes.

[SoTired]

Don't most play that 1D 1S 3H = inv spade raise with heart shortness and 1D 1S 4H = GF with heart shortness?

[Guest Jlall]

Don't most play that 1D 1S 3H = inv spade raise with heart shortness and 1D 1S 4H = GF with heart shortness?

yes.

[Guest Jlall]

I think it's perhaps possible but very difficult to construct auctions to reach a grand that won't reach one if west has K9xx x KQJx AJxx, if someone is being honest with themself.

Why that? Opposite all keycards, the original hand needs >=3 hearts and good trumps, or a 5th spade, or another trick somewhere else to make grand good, your hand needs a lot more.

 

Arend

I think jdonn is right in this regard, to a point. Some auctions that some will have will reach a point where Responder, who is likely to be the decision-maker in many auctions, will be unable to know whether Opener has 4441 or 5431 as his pattern. That fifth club will be critical to the grand in many such auctions.

 

The difficult solution, however, seems to be that a 6♥ Last Train call almost always is available at the SOGOTP point, and in every context I have imagined the fifth club will be the reason for Opener to accept.

I think it's more simple. After keycard then 5N responder will bid slam with KQJxx, and just bid 6D with KQJx since the former is an extra trick (which is usually useful when bidding a grand).

[Fluffy]

Agree with Justin, 5NT is the key to diferentiate solid diamonds.

 

I have learnt that KQx(x) is bid as 2 keycards (6♥) while KQJxx should bid 7. Curiously I wasn't taught what to bid with KQJx. Maybe 6♠, having spades as trumps might save the day.

[Guest Jlall]

Agree with Justin, 5NT is the key to diferentiate solid diamonds.

 

I have learnt that KQx(x) is bid as 2 keycards (6♥) while KQJxx should bid 7. Curiously I wasn't taught what to bid with KQJx. Maybe 6♠, having spades as trumps might save the day.

heh I didn't know anyone still played # of kings (or key cards or whatever) or 5N anymore.

[Echognome]

Don't most play that 1D 1S 3H = inv spade raise with heart shortness and 1D 1S 4H = GF with heart shortness?

yes.

Hmm and I thought that people played it (slightly) differently.

 

That is to say that 3♥ was invitational OR slammish, whereas 4♥ had only game interest, but not significant extras. I.e. so we can break it down into three ranges to distinguish, say:

 

Kxxx x KQxxx Axx

 

Kxxx x AQxxx AQx

 

AQxx x AKQxxx Ax