jump rebid after 2over1

[cnszsun]

You play 2 over 1 forcing to game, after

1♥-2♣

3♥

1st question:

What kind of hand is qualified for a jump rebid after partner makes a 2/1 bid?

 

2nd question:

After 3h, if partner bid 4c, is it cuebid agreeing ♥ or natural to show ♣ length?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

3H shows a suit, which can be played for one looser,

and sets trumps exept responder bids 3NT or 4C,

the later assumes you dont play strong jumps shifts.

If you play strong jumpshifts, 4C is also a cue in support

of hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

What Marlowe said, except that I would add that 3♥ shows a very strong hand that is interested in slam even if p is minimal. Also I think 3♥ will more often be a solid suit than a 1-looser suit. Mike Lawrence writes in his 2/1 workbook that some play it as a solid suit and some play it as "at most one looser". Personally I think one looser is acceptable but I don't have a strong opinion about it.

 

I'm not sure if 4♣ by S would be natural or a cue-bid now. I like Fred's rule "if a bid can be natural, it is" but I don't know if he would apply it here. I play it as natural with both IRL partners.

[Finch]

What P_Marlowe said.

 

If you play it as a solid (no-loser) suit it won't come up enough. Holding something like Ax KQJ109xx Ax Kx, 3H is an excellent descriptive call.

[kenrexford]

I play the jump rebid here as setting trumps. If partner was interested in any discussion as to alternative strains, he'd rebid 2M and then keep bidding them, or he'd rebid 4M. The jump rebid shuts out any such discussion.

 

The up-side is that we have no more ambiguity and therefore have more cuebids for slam purposes available.

 

The second question has already been answered, sort of.

 

It does not "agree hearts." Partner's 3♥ call "agreed" hearts. Like when my wife and I agree that I should have taken out the trash last night -- she "agrees" for both of us, and I quit arguing.

 

4♣, therefore, would be a cue for partner. For me, that 4♣ call would:

 

1. Directly show two of the top three club honors

2. Inferentially deny a spade control, as I did not bid 3♠.

3. Inferentially deny serious slam interest, whatever that means contextually, because I did not bid 3NT.

 

As a follow-up, if partner now bids 4♦, that does not show a diamond control. Because he is the only "serious" partner in the sequence, and as he could have easily predicted this sequence, 4♦ would be Last Train, a general "cue" simply asking me if I have more to show. As the question of diamond control has not been resolved, 4♦ by Opener would tend to ask if I have that diamond control, and I would sign off unless holding a diamond control (or something weird and unexpected, like the heart King).

 

BTW -- if I held that weird something, like AKQ of clubs and the heart King, now is a time for the Lackwood convention, perhaps.

[foo]

Agree with Frances and Ken here.

[mikeh]

I play it as solid trump: AKQ10xx would be a minimum holding (yes, I understand that this is not quite solid) and some extra values.. probably a good 15+. It is a rare bid, but I don't like the example given by Frances... for me, the jump rebid removes all ambiguity about trump, and is a slam move. If I hold xx, as responder, I known that this is sufficient, while if the suit could be KQJ10xx, or AQJ10xx, I am going to be worried about trump quality... that worry can be answered, eventually.. but I prefer to avoid that issue.

[foo]

That definitely reduces the frequency of the sequence considerably; and at the cost of increasing the variety of hands shown by the simple 2M rebid.

 

One of the tensions here is between making the jump rebid descriptive enough vs having the simple rebid being too unlimited.

 

It's for this reason that when playing 2/1 GF, I like to have both 2M and 2N available for showing minimums and why I like to allow the jump rebid to show a wider variety of trump suits than simply a solid suit.

 

Let me be clear that I am not criticizing mikeh's choices here. Simply pointing out the logic behind some different choices.

[han]

What P_Marlowe said.

 

If you play it as a solid (no-loser) suit it won't come up enough. Holding something like Ax KQJ109xx Ax Kx, 3H is an excellent descriptive call.

I agree but I wouldn't require such a strong hand. Take away the club king and I would still bid 3H.

[pbleighton]

I agree but I wouldn't require such a strong hand. Take away the club king and I would still bid 3H.

 

If you would do that', it's a pretty weak slam invitation.

 

Peter

[mikeh]

I'm not at all convinced that Frances' type of hand will come up more frequently than my prototypical AQx AKQ10xx xx Jx, but, in any event, I don't mind having this as an infrequent hand-type.

 

It might be different (heck, it WOULD be different) if not playing a strict 2/1 GF method... as it is, in a strict 2/1 method, I prefer to conserve bidding space unless I have a specific picture to paint: whether that be a jump rebid of my suit, a jump to 3N, a jump raise of partner's suit, etc.

 

When I intentionally consume my own constructive bidding space, I want to make partner's valuation choice as easy as possible.. whether that be to suggest 3N or to sign-off in my suit or to cue... any denomination other than my suit or notrump is slam-co-operative and a cue... even if it was partner's suit over my 1-level.

[kenrexford]

The way I play this jump, there is not concept of "what it shows." That's relatively irrelevant, sort of.

 

The call grabs captaincy for good. There is no reconsideration. Opener has demanded cuebidding, will ask questions, and will make the decisions, with very limited exception. So, Opener has what opener has.

 

Now, of course Opener should not do this unless he has a hand of a certain type. But, description is not key, merely just cause for this venture.

[foo]

The way I play this jump, there is not concept of "what it shows." That's relatively irrelevant, sort of.

 

The call grabs captaincy for good. There is no reconsideration. Opener has demanded cuebidding, will ask questions, and will make the decisions, with very limited exception. So, Opener has what opener has.

 

Now, of course Opener should not do this unless he has a hand of a certain type. But, description is not key, merely just cause for this venture.

yes, but I think we all agree it should not be bid with any random hand holding 6+M.

 

My suggestion is that, at the least, it shows a 6- loser hand and a Suit Quality of 9+.

 

It =is= a Captaincy seizing bid and at least a mild slam try after all.