Not forcing or forcing

[ardf10987]

I had some problem about a simple sequence. I hadn't doubts before, anyway just to verify what the world think, can you choose in this two sequences (ops always silent)...

 

1♣ 1♦ 2♥ Not forcing (can be passed) or forcing

 

1♣ 1♠ 2♥ Not forcing (can be passed) or forcing

 

Thanks

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

forcing, the first one game forcing,

the second forcing for one round or

if you play in NA promising a 3rd bid,

in both cases 5-4.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

Yes, both are forcing. It's not a matter of agreement.

 

The first one is a jump shift by opener. This is game forcing and shows at least a 5-card in the opening suit (not sure what to do with a 4414 though), along with the 4-card hearts. Thus a simple 1♥ rebid could be as strong as 17(18) points, while a 2NT rebid would not deny a 4-card hearts.

 

The second one is a reverse. The word "reverse" is misleading (historical reason: in older styles, a ♥/♣ hand with less than 17(16) points would always open 1♥ even if clubs were longer). You can recognize a reverse as the non-jump introduction of a second suit (here ♥) by a player who already showed another suit (♣) and which forces partner to take preference for the first suit at the 3-level:

 

1♦-1♠

2♦-2♥* not a reverse: opener can take preference with 2♠

 

1♦-1♥

2♦-2♠* reverse: opener must take preference with 3♥

 

1♥-2♦

3♣* reverse: responder must take preference with 3♦

 

A reverse is always forcing and always shows a 5-card or longer in the first suit (again, not sure what to do with a 1444). In your example, the reverse forces for only one round, but most stronger players have the agreement that opener must make a third bid unless responder jumps to game. Hence

1♣-1♠

2♥-2♠*

is forcing, as would 2NT, 3♣ and 3♥ be.

[gwnn]

I voted for 2) because I read the post wrong. Obviously both are forcing, and 99% of the world plays the first sequence as GF.

[foo]

The first is a Jump Shift.

The 2nd is a Reverse.

 

They are both strong bids and are 100% forcing. Most of the world plays the first as GF.

[ochinko]

The strength of the opener in both cases is unlimited, which makes them forcing. The clubs are longer than the hearts, and the two suits are at least 5:4.

 

You could, of course, invent a system in which they would be non-forcing, but I don't see what you'd gain by such treatment.

[han]

They are both forcing, I would never pass the first one.

[ardf10987]

Tx all.

 

I hadn't doubts, but it's much more better to see a lot of people thinking on the same line (all of you till now, because the 1 vote was an error).

 

I think we can forget this matter. :)