Bridge Seems simple, but is it?

[microcap]

As usual, my ferocious arguments with Rex come in more than one part. So come back and visit for question 2 after a bunch of responses!

 

You are playing 2/1 with some oddities, but they aren't relevant here.

 

You hold in 3rd hand:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk53hj83daqxxcj62]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The other team seems respectable enough--this is the second round of a KO.

 

Partner opens 1♣. This can be short, but if it is, it is in a 17+ HCP hand.

 

RHO Overcalls 1♥.

 

Now it is to you: What is your bid, if any?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I assume X shows a 4 carder, I would

bid it anyway. The alternative option

is to pass, intending to bid 2H, in case

partner reopens (he will be short in hearts

most of the time).

 

There was lot of disagrement, as I claimed

that the message, that I hold 4 spades can

be cancled, but here we go again. B)

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ochinko]

I don't have anything to bid, so I pass. Shouldn't be a criminal offense to pass this hand.

[pbleighton]

I have invitational values, and must show them.

 

I don't like 2NT with my hearts.

 

I can't support clubs.

 

I can't make a negative double with 3 spades.

 

2D is what is left.

 

Peter

[pbleighton]

I don't have anything to bid, so I pass. Shouldn't be a criminal offense to pass this hand.

 

Nothing criminal about missing game B)

 

Peter

[mike777]

As usual, my ferocious arguments with Rex come in more than one part. So come back and visit for question 2 after a bunch of responses!

 

You are playing 2/1 with some oddities, but they aren't relevant here.

 

You hold in 3rd hand:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk53hj83daqxxcj62]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

The other team seems respectable enough--this is the second round of a KO.

 

Partner opens 1♣. This can be short, but if it is, it is in a 17+ HCP hand.

 

RHO Overcalls 1♥.

 

Now it is to you: What is your bid, if any?

1nt, thought that was clear until I read the other posts.

[helene_t]

Don't I have a way to show this hand? Dbl, 1♠, or 2♣? I refuse to pass and I refuse to make up a 1NT or 2NT or 2♦ bid. Given that opener has real clubs unless 17+, 2♣ must be the least of evils.

[pbleighton]

Don't I have a way to show this hand? Dbl, 1♠, or 2♣? I refuse to pass and I refuse to make up a 1NT or 2NT or 2♦ bid. Given that opener has real clubs unless 17+, 2♣ must be the least of evils.

 

A couple of things:

1. The way I read it, opener might have 3 clubs if < 17.

2. What do you mean by 2C? For me, it's a weak bid, I will bid 2H with inv+ and club support?

3. Why is 2D *made up*? 1M-2D with 4 cards is common, and here you have a better suit than many times.

 

Peter

[the hog]

Can't pass or bid 2C as suggested above. Put me in the 2D camp.

[Gerben42]

I like the suggestion of Pass followed by a cuebid. Even if the ♠ message can be cancelled, how to show it while at the same time denying the stopper?

 

One of those Italian "that's clever!" hands. 1♠ showing 0-3 cards there and no bid.

[jtfanclub]

1nt, thought that was clear until I read the other posts.

I've seen this hand before, I think.

 

1nt for me too. What d'ya mean, Jxx isn't a stopper? I just missed winning a tourney because I didn't think Jxx was a stopper. Partner didn't think Qx was a stopper. Oops.

 

You couldn't get me to bid 2♦ with a stick. It's not 2/1 strength, it's not 2/1 shape...if we end up playing in 1NT, I don't think I'll feel bad about it.

[pbleighton]

You couldn't get me to bid 2D with a stick. It's not 2/1 strength, it's not 2/1 shape

 

No stick, but 2/1 responses in competition are frequently done on 10 hcp, at least where I play bridge, and this is a (bad) 11 count, and diamonds are where we live. I don't *like* 2D, but I dislike treating an invitational hand as a weak hand worse.

 

If I was going to bid NT, it would be 2NT.

 

Peter

[Guest Jlall]

2D seems totally normal with this hand type. Good luck to the passers when partner also passes and you are on for 3N.

[akhare]

2♦ seems to be a standout bid. X could work but lying about ♠ length could create problems in a contested auction....

[microcap]

Here's how it went: Rex passed, and RHO mustered a 1NT bid.

 

I held:[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sa1098ha2djcaq10984]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv].

 

I bid 2 clubs, pass by LHO, now Rex bids 3♣ pass around when we are cold for 3NT and 5 clubs too!

 

Rex felt that his 3 club bid was constructive enough for me to go on with my nice hand. I thought he had a few clubs and a 5 count and was trying to keep them out of the auction.

 

Comments?

 

BTW, Rex has conceded graciously that pass was wrong after reading the forum responses.

[jtfanclub]

You couldn't get me to bid 2D with a stick. It's not 2/1 strength, it's not 2/1 shape

 

No stick, but 2/1 responses in competition are frequently done on 10 hcp, at least where I play bridge, and this is a (bad) 11 count, and diamonds are where we live. I don't *like* 2D, but I dislike treating an invitational hand as a weak hand worse.

 

If I was going to bid NT, it would be 2NT.

It's not a bad 11 count, it's an awful 11 count. I don't generally associate 11 counts with 10 losers.

 

This:

 

Kxx

xx

AQxxx

xxx

 

is a freakin' 9 count, and yet I'd consider it more of a 2 diamond bid. It has one fewer losers, and it likes diamonds.

 

One the actual hand, you're 3343, and you have two Jxxs, one in the opponent's suit. If the jacks are useful, you have a no-trump hand. If they don't work, you don't have a bad 11 count, you have a bad 9 count. So this hand lives and dies in No-Trump.

 

One example is not worth much, but how are you going to bid it across the actual hand? If partner makes an invitational call, I assume you're going to pass, and can the actual opening hand force game? Sounds a lot like a misfit to me.

 

In general, given a choice between overbidding and underbidding on first response, I'd rather underbid. I'd rather not have an invite at all than have one and decline it. And I feel that while 1NT is an underbid (by 1 hcp), 2♦ is a decided overbid (by 1 trick).

[pbleighton]

1nt for me too. What d'ya mean, Jxx isn't a stopper? I just missed winning a tourney because I didn't think Jxx was a stopper. Partner didn't think Qx was a stopper. Oops.

 

OK. you are an aggressive bidder, you don't like to miss game (neither do I :) ) . But you don't want to invite with an 11 count with Jxx in partner's suit:

 

I bid 2 clubs, pass by LHO, now Rex bids 3♣ pass around when we are cold for 3NT and 5 clubs too!

 

Then:

If they don't work, you don't have a bad 11 count, you have a bad 9 count. So this hand lives and dies in No-Trump.

 

You don't believe in temporizing bids?

 

If partner makes an invitational call, I assume you're going to pass, and can the actual opening hand force game? Sounds a lot like a misfit to me.

 

After hearing 2D, I'd bid 3NT in a heartbeat. Wouldn't you?

 

Peter

[goodwintr]

Alan Truscott played and advocated that the negative double of one heart denies as many as four spades. That would seem to be the ideal solution to this sort of problem. If you object that this gives up the distinction between bidding one spade to show five spades and doubling one heart to show four spades, Truscott would have answered that you were going to bid one spade on four or five spades if No. 2 had passed, so how bad can it be to do the same thing once No. 2 has bid?

[han]

Using standard agreements I prefer 1NT over 2D, I'm not capable of passing.

 

Since this is posted in the A/E forum: I also like to play that 1S denies 4 spades.

[foo]

Alan Truscott played and advocated that the negative double of one heart denies as many as four spades. That would seem to be the ideal solution to this sort of problem. If you object that this gives up the distinction between bidding one spade to show five spades and doubling one heart to show four spades, Truscott would have answered that you were going to bid one spade on four or five spades if No. 2 had passed, so how bad can it be to do the same thing once No. 2 has bid?

♠  K53  ♥  J83  ♦  AQxx  ♣  J62 

 

Partner opens 1♣. This can be short, but if it is, it is in a 17+ HCP hand.

RHO Overcalls 1♥.

Now it is to you: What is your call?

Nice bidding problem :)

 

I've seen the Truscott solution as well. I like it... ...if you and pd have made the agreement.

 

With this hand, the least of evils w/o the Truscott agreement seems to be a 2N bid.

I do not like hiding invitational values from pd; and I have some positional guards I'd like to protect.

 

On a bad day, We get to 3N w/o stop and down We go

On a so-so day, We figure out 5m is better than 3N and play 5m

On a good day, pd has Qx or better in ♥'s and 3N is reasonable.

[dake50]

How does 4S play in 4-3 fit after neg double? As likely as 3NT needing CK on or 2nd H-stop.

[foo]

How does 4S play in 4-3 fit after neg double? As likely as 3N needing CK on or 2nd H-stop.

The problem with a Moysian ♠ contract when the short hand is 4333 is that the ruffs are all going to be in the long spade hand.

 

That makes the usual defense of forcing declarer to ruff with the long hand (AKA "Tapping Declarer") even more effective.

 

I haven't explicitly done the calculation as to which is better of the two scenarios you present, but I know that the 43 rates to be poor while 3N has a chance to be good because I don't know about those cards yet.

[Finch]

I really hate bidding NT without a stop in this sort of auction.

I particularly hate jumping to 2NT which should promise a solid stop, and usually a double (or some likelihood of a double) stop.

 

Saying we can get back out to 5m if we have no heart stop after bidding 2NT is a pipe dream. Looking at, say,

 

A109x

x

Kx

AKQxxx

 

partner is going to raise 2NT to 3NT and down we go when 5C is a great contract.

 

Playing a 4-card major system, where 1C natural and either strong balanced or 5+ clubs, I would bid 2H showing a good club raise.

 

As I can't do that opposite a possibly short club, the choices seem to be double, pass or 2D. If I play that double promises 4 spades I'm not doing that. Partner has the right to bid 4S over next hand's 3H or 4H bid.

 

With this shape and high cards it's a normal 2D bid, planning to pass partner's minimum rebid in NT or clubs, and give preference to 3C over a 2S bid.

 

I don't mind saying it's a horrible 11-count and passing, but to be honest I'd just bid 2D and be done with it.

 

With partner's actually hand opposite he will drive game (1C 1H 2D P 2H P 3C P 3NT P - showing some doubt that 3NT is right i.e. only one stop and some diamond support).

 

On the auction you had, it's important for North to realise that 3C is actually a constuctive bid here. If you had been dealt xxx xxx AQxx Jxx you certainly would have passed 1H and you need some way to show some values.

[nige1]

As usual, my ferocious arguments with Rex come in more than one part.  So come back and visit for question 2 after a bunch of responses!

 

You are playing 2/1 with some oddities, but they aren't relevant here.

 

You hold in 3rd hand:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sk53hj83daqxxcj62

 

 

the other team seems respectable enough--this is the second round of a ko.

 

partner opens 1♣.  this can be short, but if it is, it is in a 17+ hcp hand.

 

rho overcalls 1♥.

 

now it is to you:  what is your bid, if any?

imo 2♦ = 10, 2♣ = 9. 1n = 8, _p = 7, _x = 6.

arguably, with the speciified methods, 2♣ may be better than 2♦

 

here's how it went:  rex passed, and rho mustered a 1nt bid.

 

i held:

dealer: south vul: none scoring: imp]133|100|Scoring: IMP ♠ A1098 ♥ A2 ♦ J ♣ AQ10984  [/hv].   I bid 2 clubs, pass by LHO, now Rex bids 3♣  pass around when we are cold for 3NT and 5 clubs too!   Rex felt that his 3 club bid was constructive enough for me to go on with my nice hand.  I thought he had a few clubs and a 5 count and was trying to keep them out of the auction.    Comments?   BTW, Rex has conceded graciously that pass was wrong after reading the forum responses. If Rex passed earlier, can he recover after the actual auction? 1♣ (1♥) _P (1N) 2♣ (_P) ???   IMO, now 2♥ = 10, 3♦ = 8, 2N = 7, 4 ♣ = 6, 3♣ = 5, 3N = 4. The Forum contributors who passed all said they would catch up with a later cuebid, and that should allow you to reach game in ♣ or no-trump.

[microcap]

We did all agree that 2♥ would have been a good catchup bid at the table---Rex just said it didn't occur to him at the time, as he thought his 3♣ bid was stronger than I thought it was.

 

Personally, I would have agreed with the 1NT bidders but the real argument was whether pass was a legitimate alternative. I think there is a pretty strong consensus that it was not.

 

Thanks to all as always.