Simple SAYC question

[Myrmidon73]

I am prety new to bridge, but I was wondering what I would do with this hand using SAYC after the bidding has gone 1H - p - 1S - p

 

 

S: A 7 6

H: A J T 8 7

D: A J 5

C: 7 2

 

Is the correct bid 1NT? or 2S? or even 2H?

[jtfanclub]

I am prety new to bridge, but I was wondering what I would do with this hand using SAYC after the bidding has gone 1H - p - 1S - p

 

 

S: A 7 6

H: A J T 8 7

D: A J 5

C: 7 2

 

Is the correct bid 1NT? or 2S? or even 2H?

You're balanced, you're minimum, and sometimes the 5-3 fits play better in no trump anyways.

 

I bid 1NT, even though I frequently raise with 3 card support.

 

Change one of the small clubs to a small diamond, and I bid 2 spades.

[kenrexford]

I'd probably avoid this problem by opening 1NT, as the hand has the playing strength of 15 (10 in the right place, five-card trick source, Aces are undervalued). However, I'm guessing that this is not an option.

 

I would like to lean toward 2♦, albeit a lie, planning to correct 2♥ to 2♠, but this double-lies (diamond length overstated, club shortness overstated), so that's out.

 

I really like my suit, so 2♥ has appeal, but I'd rather not override a potentially better spade fit that may exist, and partner has a tough time rebidding spades if I rebid 2♥.

 

I like my spade fragment, and I'm concerned about the club hole, but unwinding a 4-3 spade non-fit is too difficult.

 

I hate 1NT because it seems completely off for all of the reasons laid out above. However, it really does look about right as a starting ground for any auctions that do not pass out at 1NT. Plus, if it does pass out, I'll probably do OK because I have two possible sources of winners -- either major -- after they cash a few diamonds. Or, maybe partner has a few diamonds -- it is possible.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1NT, you are bal. and the HCP range

fits, if partner is interested in 3 card

support he can ask.

Even if you raise regular with 3 cards,

those hand should contain a shortage,

which the given hand has not.

 

2H promises a 6 card suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

I like my spade fragment, and I'm concerned about the club hole, but unwinding a 4-3 spade non-fit is too difficult.

 

I don't see why this would be particularly difficult, unless responder is passing 2S. Responder with 4 spades only, and inv+ values, will try to bid NT with values in the minors, or will give belated heart support.

 

I see nothing wrong with 2S on this hand. Gets to some 5-3 fits where responder won't rebid over 1nt, gets to some good 4-3 fits that play better than NT. If playing in NT, rightsides partner's potentially vulnerable club stopper. Only real downside is playing the Moysian when 1nt was better.

[helene_t]

I think you should have opened this hand 1NT, evaluating it as closer to 15 than 14.

 

If you think it's too weak for a 1NT opening, you must rebid 1NT to show a balanced hand.

 

2♠ is a reasonable alternative but it's a little risky to raise on a 3-card with an unknown partner unless there is no alternative. Some partners don't like it.

 

Those who think this hand is strong enough for 1NT but don't open 1NT with a 5-card major, would rebid 2♦ now. Never 2♥, not even if the suit were much stronger. 2♥ here 100% promises a 6-card. Partner will pass 2♥ if he has no game ambitions, even with a void hearts!

[kenrexford]

I like my spade fragment, and I'm concerned about the club hole, but unwinding a 4-3 spade non-fit is too difficult.

 

I don't see why this would be particularly difficult, unless responder is passing 2S. Responder with 4 spades only, and inv+ values, will try to bid NT with values in the minors, or will give belated heart support.

 

I see nothing wrong with 2S on this hand. Gets to some 5-3 fits where responder won't rebid over 1nt, gets to some good 4-3 fits that play better than NT. If playing in NT, rightsides partner's potentially vulnerable club stopper. Only real downside is playing the Moysian when 1nt was better.

Sure, you and I might have no problem. For instance, I'd bid 2NT with one partner, who will rebid his 5-card suit conventionally to show the 3-card raise.

 

However, this is a newer player. I doubt highly that the newer player has a sophisticated arsenal of tools to unwind 4-3 fits, or the question would not have been asked.

[Stephen Tu]

Sure, you and I might have no problem. For instance, I'd bid 2NT with one partner, who will rebid his 5-card suit conventionally to show the 3-card raise.

 

However, this is a newer player. I doubt highly that the newer player has a sophisticated arsenal of tools to unwind 4-3 fits, or the question would not have been asked.

 

Why does it have to be a "sophisticated arsenal"? I am not recommending anything conventional, utilizing a forcing art. 2nt rebid by responder with artificial continuations. What I recommended is just completely natural, with a natural NF 2nt by responder, which is the assumed std for Std American systems. This is stuff I learned when I was beginner, I don't ever recall the beginning Std American texts teaching that you should never raise on 3cds if that looked best. Natural, simple continuations. I have no qualms about teaching a beginner this. Yes, you end in a 4-3 fit occasionally. It's good for new players to get experience in playing 4-3 fits.

 

This "never raise on 3" approach is more European than SA.

[kenrexford]

Why does it have to be a "sophisticated arsenal"? I am not recommending anything conventional, utilizing a forcing art. 2nt rebid by responder with artificial continuations. What I recommended is just completely natural, with a natural NF 2nt by responder, which is the assumed std for Std American systems.

I yield.

 

If that's not too complicated, and partner knows the bid, great -- use it. As I said, I do also.

 

That being said, however, I'd still open this 1NT. If I held one fewer Jack, I'd open 1♥ and rebid 1NT. There is no stiff and there is not substantial COV.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

This hand is a matter of bidding style and also depends on your estimate of partner.

 

This would be a routine 2S raise if I were playing. If partner is a weak player or one that will have problems playing a 4-3 spade fit, do not raise them.

 

When you have three Aces and a very weak doubleton, the raise to 2S 'stands out' in my bidding style. I like to play 4-3 fits(rather than silly NT contracts without a club stopper) and the play in 4-3 fits is not a problem.

 

You may very well get to a superior 4-3 spade game and 'make it' while the NT bidders lose the first five club tricks or 3-4 club tricks plus a side suit loser or two.

 

No one mentions that even playing 'checkback' methods, very few pairs have methods to check back for a 4-3 spade fit 'when' 3NT is an inferior or even a very bad contract.

 

Playing 3NT from the 'wrong side' is much more likely to be a problem. Partner holding Kx or AQ in clubs might not find it very amusing when you bid NT first and they watch as 3NT goes down because a spade raise was considered a bad thing.

 

If partner is worth a 'checkback' bid over a 1NT bid, this hand is unlikely to be a problem playing any method or style of bidding. If partner is too weak to bid again after your 1NT rebid, the problem might be a serious one.

 

If you raised partner and the other side bids, partner is well placed to compete.

When you rebid 1NT, partner is unsure about a possible spade fit.

 

I won a bunch of IMPs many years ago when I bid 1D-1S-2S-4S at my table. Partner looked at my three card raise with a raised eyebrow. He make game with his weakish shapely 5-5 hand. At the other table, they rebid the diamond suit and it went 1D-1S-2D all pass. Responder 'did not' have the values to continue to bid 'without' spade support.

 

Regards,

Robert

[SoTired]

I am prety new to bridge, but I was wondering what I would do with this hand using SAYC after the bidding has gone 1H - p - 1S - p

 

 

S: A 7 6

H: A J T 8 7

D: A J 5

C: 7 2

 

Is the correct bid 1NT? or 2S? or even 2H?

Since you are new to bridge, I'll give you some guidelines to help you

 

Rebids with a min opener:

1) Raise responder with 4

2) Bid a 2nd 4-card suit if non-reverse

3) Rebid your own 6-card suit

4) Rebid 1N with a balanced hand

5) Raise responder with 3

6) Rebid your 5-card major

 

To simplify things for a new player:

1) Ignore stoppers for 1N or 2N openers or 1N rebids

2) Ignore location of honors. Only consider suit lengths and total HCP. That means you treat xxxxx the same as AKQxx, etc.

3) Ignore advanced evaluation advice (like opening 1N on 14 or 18). Learn basic bidding first

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

To simplify things for a new player:

<snip>

3) Ignore advanced evaluation advice (like opening 1N on 14 or 18). Learn basic bidding first

I would like to stress this one.

Put another way, first one should learn to

walk before one starts running.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[goodwintr]

(Robert, July 7, 2007, 4:10 pm)

I won a bunch of IMPs many years ago when I bid 1D-1S-2S-4S at my table. Partner looked at my three card raise with a raised eyebrow. He make game with his weakish shapely 5-5 hand. At the other table, they rebid the diamond suit and it went 1D-1S-2D all pass. Responder 'did not' have the values to continue to bid 'without' spade support.

 

This happened in the Bermuda Bowl in 1958. The Italians bid 1D-1S; 2S-2S and made it (although it would have been defeated with a different defense). The Americans, constrained by Kaplan-Sheinwold methods, bid 1D-1S; 2D-P and went down in a 5-1 "fit."

[goodwintr]

Correction to previous post: The Italians bid 1D-1S; 2S-4S.

[kenberg]

Either bid could work out. My (slight) preference is for 2S. With some of my partners this would be too upsetting and in deference to their sensibilities I would rebid 1NT.

 

It's a good thing to discuss this with your partner. IF you raise 1S to 2S on a hand like this then partner needs to know that he should not accept spades as absolutely the strain the hand is to be played in. With a balanced hand of his own, and decent values, he can try NT himself. 1H-1S-2S-2N-3N-pass is a perfectly sensible possibility.

 

Some people have very strong feelings about three card raises. My own view is to hold it open as an option, but not to rush into such a raise at every opportunity. Here you have aces and a possibility of ruffs, and this means that a 4-3 fit may play fine if 2S is followed by three passes.

 

Ken

[BebopKid]

Easy 1NT.

[mhais]

i try like this. pd 1s bid shows 6 or 6+, so i count at this stage that pd has only 4 hcp i have minimum game not possible so i have to convey minimum hand to pd , anything ibid at 3 level is forcing 1 round so bid at 3 level is canceled, i do not have 6 cards h so i will not bid 2h with bal i bid 1nt.

[jillybean]

Good grief, this is quite straight forward for someone who says "I am prety new to bridge"

 

Rebid 1nt

You need 4♠ to support partner, you need 6♥'s, or very good 5♥'s to rebid ♥'s

[Echognome]

This is a judgment call in my view. You either bid 1NT or 2♠. Obviously 2♠ has to be based on the agreement that you can raise with 3 card support. For me it's an easy 2♠ bid as I have a ruffing value (xx) and a trump suit that looks useful for ruffing (Axx means I can ruff once and not waste an honor). Contrast that with AQT in trumps and you won't want to necessarily be ruffing with those honors.

[the hog]

Good grief, this is quite straight forward for someone who says "I am prety new to bridge"

 

Rebid 1nt

You need 4♠ to support partner, you need 6♥'s, or very good 5♥'s to rebid ♥'s

Its actually not straightforward Kathryn. I think this is a clear 2S bid, for example, as do a number of other posters. Why do you "need" 4 card support to raise? Its certainly worthy of discussion. fwfw I would also have opened 1NT playing 15-17 NT.

[Codo]

Hi Ron,

 

maybe you do not talk often to newbies?

 

At least the ones I know love strict and easy rules:

Raise with an eight card fit.

Open 5 card majors

A 1 NT opening denies a 5 card major.

 

And so on...

 

Of course you and many others have other ideas what is the best use for these bids. But this is what they told the newbies. And I guess it it much better for them to stick to their easy rules first.

 

If they want to learn more, there are much more important things to learn then judging whether you better open 1 NT with a 5 card major or raise a pssible 4 card suit with just 3 card support.

 

FWIW: I uderstand that this is a clear 2 Spade bid for you (and many others) but I bet that the expert community will be split between 1 NT and 2 Spade with a slightly majority for 1 NT. And this is reason enough to stick to the easy rules.

[P_Marlowe]

..., or very good 5♥'s to rebid ♥'s

No.

 

The rebid shows a 6 carder, if you have 5 cards

you have other options.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I agree that other things being equal, simple rules are better than complex rules.

 

I don't think it's a simple rule that 1NT denies a 5-card major. It's an exception to the rule that 15-17 balanced hands must be opened with 1NT, and it leads to rebid problems.

 

Raising with a known 8-card fit only is indeed, by itself, a simpler rule than "you may raise with 3-card support if the alternatives are worse". But I wonder if simple rules would catter for a 3145 by opener. I suppose another simple rule is not to bid a 5-card twice.

 

Now balanced hands are easily and effectively dealt with in bread-and-butter systems. There's no reason to make a problem of this hand, just rebid 1NT. But more generally, I think teaching judgement is more important than teaching rules.

[the hog]

Yeeees, Roland, but you can learn/teach judgement as well. Personally, I think this is an interesting question that was asked as to what the rebid should be. With Hx in the doubleton, I would bid 1NT, with xx, 2S. Also the hand is a bit too good for 1NT - a nice 14 with a decent 5 card suit....

[Edmunte1]

Agree 100% with Robert. When you have more possible bids and one of them is to give fit with 3 cards with honour, take that into consideration. You'll win in the long run, though sometimes you'll have to play some 4-3 fits, but this could sometimes work better than playing 1NT. And at least your partner will sharpen his declaring skills B)