Bid this one

[Fluffy]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sa9xxxxhkdkxckqxx&s=sqj10xxxhaxxxdqxca]133|200|[/hv]

 

I think it was Phil who said that he once made a bare King after someone made a finese with 12 cards. I joined the club last weekend.

 

Nevermind, can you find 6 on any system?

[foo]

The most direct route in SA or 2/1 is 1♠-2N!;5♠-6♠.

 

If opener doesn't think trump extras are enough opposite a GF Jacoby 2N promising at least 4+♠ support, then whatever bid that shows interest (3♠ if playing Fast Arrival) followed by Serious 3N and whatever until 6♠ is reached.

[hrothgar]

Playing MOSCITO, there is an easy route to slam:

 

1♥ - 1♠ (1♥ = 4+ Spades, 1♠ = relay)

3♥ - 4♣ (3♥ = 6=1=2=4 shape, 4♣ = RKCB for Spades)

4N - 6♠ (4N = 2 Keycards, + Spade Queen, 6♠ = to play)

 

Unfortunately, its unclear whether I'd bid this way at the table. I normally prefer not to relay with a big fit for opener since there is too much chance that the opponent's will crash the auction.

 

We might (instead) produce the following

 

1♥ - 2N (1♥ = 4+ Spades, 2NT = limit raise+)

3N - 4♣ (3N = maximum opening with 5+ Spades and a 4+ card side suit, 4♣ = relay)

4♦ - 4NT (4♦ asks for side suit, 4NT = Hearts)

5♣ - 5N (5♣ = RKCB, 5N = 2 Aces plus the Queen)

6♠

[kenrexford]

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: Unknown

♠ A9xxxx ♥ K ♦ Kx ♣ KQxx ♠ QJ10xxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ A

 

Nevermind, can you find 6 on any system?

Seems rather straight-forward for the start, the way I bid.

 

1♠ (easy opening)

2♣ (I hate 2NT with 6-4 pattern)

2♥ (natural)

2♠ (sets trumps -- start cuebidding)

2NT (not two of the top three spades)

3♣ (two of the top three clubs, and Opener's weakness in trumps is not fatal)

3♠ (no diamond control, not two top hearts, but one top spade honor)

3NT (serious interest)

4♣ (one of the top three clubs)

4♦ (diamond control)

4♥ (heart control -- Ace or King)

 

Responder now know that Opener has the club Ace, the heart Ace, and one of the top spades. He also knows that Opener does not have the diamond Ace or a diamond stiff. So, he wants to know if Opener has (a.) the spade King or a sixth spade and (b.) if diamonds are protected.

 

The five-level should be relatively safe, although admittedly we might lose a spade and two diamonds with a diamond lead. One route is to bid 4NT as 1430 RKCB and hope for the King and for no diamond problem. If Opener had held the spade King, Opener would bid 5♣, which allows a neat 5♦ call to ask about the diamond Queen (as the King has already been denied, and as the trump queen has already been denied by virtue of prior cuebids and the 1430 answer).

 

A better course, however, may be a simple quantitative 5♠ call. As Opener cannot have another club card, spade card, or heart card, and cannot have the Ace or King of diamonds, or diamond shortness, the only interesting card is the diamond Queen. As 4NT would clarify the spade situation as far as honors, and would allow Opener to show the diamond Queen (see above), the inference is that Responder has play for slam opposite less than this. It is a tight inference, but there nonetheless. In the end, the sixth spade and probably useful diamond Queen should be enough to accept, whether on general principles or because Opener actually figures out the (esoteric?) nuance.

[scoob]

Nevermind, can you find 6 on any system?

1♠ precision-esque limited open

2NT shape? (GF+)

3♣ shortness here

3♦ how short?

3♠ singleton

3NT side suit?

4♥

4NT rkc♠

etc

 

an immediate 1♦ from west, or 3♦ from east do not present major problems to this system, but an immediate 3♦ from west likely cuts out the shape definition which means we're probably not bidding it unless i'm both drunk and north.

[TimG]

4NT rkc♠

etc

Going to be sort of embarrassing if one of opener's 2 keycards is the ♠K.

 

This is a good hand for old-fashioned-four-ace Blackwood.

[Antoine Fourrière]

Playing kickback, one could think of 1♠ 2♥ 4♣ 4♠ 5♦ 6♠.

2♥: please raise me with three cards, 4♣ splinter, 4♠ RKCB for hearts, 5♦ 2 keys, no ♥Q.

[bhall]

Without a transfer opening, the ♦K may be vulnerable, so it becomes necessary to find out if partner holds the ♦Q. If he does, 6N is the top spot. A Minotaur (Hall-Munday) auction comes close:

 

2♠ - 6 or 7 ♠, 10-14 HCP

2N - Relay, showing fit + game interest

3♥ - Exactly 4 ♥

4♣ - First- or second-round ♣ control

4♥ - ♥ A or K, denies ♦ control unless opener is prepared to cue ♦ over 4♠

4♠ - Looks like we're off two aces and maybe a second ♦

5♣ - ♣A or void (first-round control because 4♣ could have been shortness)

5♥ - First- or second-round ♥ control, implies ♦Kx(x) because 5♣ still did not show any ♦ control

6♣ - Guess what? I do have the ♦Q, and my ♣ control was the A

6N - Well, then, I can count 12 in notrump

 

I'll have to try this one out on Jim Munday; I doubt he'll bid 6♣, but the rest is just our cue-bidding style.

[skjaeran]

As Tim mentioned above, I don't think anyone emplyoing keycard asks will get to slam off two keycards....

[Echognome]

Nevermind, can you find 6 on any system?

Sure. If the conditions of contest are that I get to open and relay in an uncontested auction, then I fancy my chances of getting to slam.

 

As Richard says, most people playing relay systems are practical in that their experience tells them with 6 card support, opponents might just about to be jamming this auction.

 

However, given that we hold the boss suit and decent values, I find it a close decision whether I'd relay or blast. In Gnome club it'd go:

 

1♠(1) - 1NT(2)

3♥(3) - 4♣(4)

4♠(5) - 4NT(6)

5♣(7) - 5♦(8)

6♣(9) - 6♠

 

(1)10-15hcp, 5+ spades.

(2)GF Relay.

(3)6=4=2=1 shape exact (I think Richard had the wrong dealer).

(4)Control ask (3♠ would ask max/min, but would still reach after opener showed max with 4 controls).

(5)4 controls (A=2,K=1). Given responder's hand, opener is known to hold 2 aces. So he might just blast to 6♠ here.

(6)Further ask.

(7)Either ♠AKQ or no ♠A/K. Responder knew this would be the response. So if he got to this point, he would ask again.

(8)Further ask.

(9)♥A or K, ♦A or K or Q, ♠Q, no 2nd ♥ honor.

 

By the last step, opener is known to be either QJTxxx Axxx Ax x or QJTxxx Axxx Qx A. So 6NT is not really an option. One hand opener has denied is QJTxxx Axxx AQ x, as that would have been a 5♠ response over 5♦ (either denying a diamond honor or showing AK, AQ, or KQ tight).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

unclear, but I will give it a try, system standard

american + some simple gadgets.

 

1S (1) - 2 NT (2)

3C (3) - 4 S (4)

 

(1) standard

(2) Jacoby,GF

(3) add. strength, single or void,

but nothing else appeals, certainly

I am not bidding 5S

(4) facing a club single, the value of

the hand goes down

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: After having the above auction I felt bad B) ,

having read, that 2 Keycards are missing, I

can live with the auction :( .

[mike777]

The trick is finding the 11 card fit.

 

1s=2nt(bergen version of jacoby)

3nt(good hand and 6 spades) Bingo....rest becomes easy now. :(

[Echognome]

The trick is finding the 11 card fit.

 

1s=2nt(bergen version of jacoby)

3nt(good hand and 6 spades) Bingo....rest becomes easy now. :(

The fact that it's a 12 card fit is just gravy...

[Impact]

South dealer

 

1S 1NT relay

2H= exactly 4H 2S=relay

3H= 6-4-2-1 3S=relay

4C= 4 cont (A=2) 4D= relay (concerned that lead through DK etc)

4H= no SAK 4S= relay

5D= HA but not Q. D top 6S I count 12 tricks whether D Q OR A

 

regards

[Guest Jlall]

I'll never play keycard again :(

[jdonn]

Lol at Justin. I do not think I would get to this slam.

[Free]

This hand is great for relay systems, otherwise you're screwed imo...

[skjaeran]

I'll never play keycard again :(

Sure you will. :D

[helene_t]

I don't think I would bid it. Either partner has to find out that his p has six spades and I'm afraid it won't happen, although I can make up some semi-plausible auctions in which it does.

[kenrexford]

This hand is great for relay systems, otherwise you're screwed imo...

A relay system is not needed.

 

Check out the normal 2/1 auction I proposed. If you think that Responder got too aggressive, which is fair, then consider the conservative finish:

 

After the 4♥ cue from Opener, Responder bids 4♠. 4♠ is not a classic signoff, as Opener has made the only and last cue possible, which is legitimate because Responder was the one who bid Serious 3NT. Responder cannot "give up" when Opener has shown a hand that is the best possible under the circumstances. Hence, 4♠ is passable, but encouraging.

 

Again, the only key holdings that Opener can have are spade length and the diamond Queen, or perhaps the specific holding of the King. The only card that could cause Responder to have fear is the diamond King, such that the diamond Queen protects the five-level. Opener can, therefore, cross the horizon.

 

If he crosses by cuebidding 5♦, Responder will realize that Opener has the diamond Queen (direct) and that he has "extras." Those "extras" must be in the form of the spade King or extra length, as nothing else makes sense.

 

So, this is not a hand where some head-exploding relay structure is needed. Just good, sound bidding works.

[Gerben42]

This is the hand you give up playing Keycard Blackwood. I can live with it.

[Robert]

Hi foo

 

In SA 2NT shows 13-15 balanced and is not(repeat not) a forcing major raise.

 

If partner holds AKxx AKxxx or AKxxxx of spades instead of the diamond king, you are bidding slam without 'any' diamond control.

 

Do your students know that you bid like this?

 

Regards,

Robert

[mikeh]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> Unknown </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> A9xxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> K </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Kx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KQxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> QJ10xxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Axxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Qx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> A </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

Nevermind, can you find 6 on any system?

Seems rather straight-forward for the start, the way I bid.

 

1♠ (easy opening)

2♣ (I hate 2NT with 6-4 pattern)

2♥ (natural)

2♠ (sets trumps -- start cuebidding)

2NT (not two of the top three spades)

3♣ (two of the top three clubs, and Opener's weakness in trumps is not fatal)

3♠ (no diamond control, not two top hearts, but one top spade honor)

3NT (serious interest)

4♣ (one of the top three clubs)

4♦ (diamond control)

4♥ (heart control -- Ace or King)

 

Responder now know that Opener has the club Ace, the heart Ace, and one of the top spades. He also knows that Opener does not have the diamond Ace or a diamond stiff. So, he wants to know if Opener has (a.) the spade King or a sixth spade and (b.) if diamonds are protected.

 

The five-level should be relatively safe, although admittedly we might lose a spade and two diamonds with a diamond lead. One route is to bid 4NT as 1430 RKCB and hope for the King and for no diamond problem. If Opener had held the spade King, Opener would bid 5♣, which allows a neat 5♦ call to ask about the diamond Queen (as the King has already been denied, and as the trump queen has already been denied by virtue of prior cuebids and the 1430 answer).

 

A better course, however, may be a simple quantitative 5♠ call. As Opener cannot have another club card, spade card, or heart card, and cannot have the Ace or King of diamonds, or diamond shortness, the only interesting card is the diamond Queen. As 4NT would clarify the spade situation as far as honors, and would allow Opener to show the diamond Queen (see above), the inference is that Responder has play for slam opposite less than this. It is a tight inference, but there nonetheless. In the end, the sixth spade and probably useful diamond Queen should be enough to accept, whether on general principles or because Opener actually figures out the (esoteric?) nuance.

I strongly suspect that you'd have the same auction to 5♠ if responder held Kxxxxx in trump, rather than Axxxxx... responder still doesn't know about the topless trump.

 

Not only does this create a fatal ambiguity, in that I don't really think that responder can bid this way with any safety, but opener CANNOT tell that QJ10xxx is 'extras' when he might, on your explanations, be looking at AJxxxx or KJxxxx... to me, QJ10xxx is NOT a slam suitable trump suit on your auction unless I KNOW that partner has Axxxxx.

 

Thus I think you fell into the almost unavoidable-on-occasion trap of constructing an auction based, subconsciously, on knowing the hands.

 

I truly doubt if this slam can be bid (intelligently) in a non-relay method.

[Fluffy]

Wow more replies than I though, I expedted more people to just give up, and was eager to see if Ben had a gadget to cope with this holding.

 

 

I have failed to find 10th trump when missing trump queen 2 times that I remember, finding the king with 12 is not for me.

 

I could believe that some natural aproaches bid 6 just after something like 3♠-4♣-4♦-4♥ or alike.

[foo]

Hi foo

 

In SA 2NT shows 13-15 balanced and is not(repeat not) a forcing major raise.

 

If partner holds AKxx  AKxxx  or AKxxxx of spades instead of the diamond king, you are bidding slam without 'any' diamond control.

 

Do your students know that you bid like this?

 

Regards,

Robert

Note the "!" in the sequences I gave.

"!" is the normal notation for an alertable bid. In this case, J2N (Jacoby 2N for those possibly not used to the abbreviation).

Everyone else seems to have understood that the sequences I posted used J2N.

 

 

Now the rest of your post.

Note the hands:

♠ A9xxxx ♥ K ♦ Kx ♣ KQxx

+

♠ QJTxxx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ A

 

South opened the bidding.

 

Since J2N shows a GF raise w/ 4+ trumps and a hand not appropriate for a splinter or a 2/1, IMHO it's a reasonable representation of N's hand.

Others might disagree, that's fine.

 

I personally strain not to make 2/1's w/o a 5+ card suit or =very= significant extras. My pd's know this and I prefer using J2N here where some might not rather than misleading pd about an inference they can usually count on.

 

Moreover, from my POV as N I want shape information from opener ASAP.

 

As N, I don't have to worry missing any of the side suit K's. I'm looking at them.

S should have 2+ defensive tricks from the following list for their opening bid:

♠ KQ, KJ, Kx; ♥ A, AQ, AJ; ♦ A, AQ, AJ; ♣ A, AJ;

The shape information will help me greatly in picturing which.

 

 

Now let's look at things from S's POV.

pd has bid J2N when I'm holding a 6 loser hand that has 2 A's and a 6 card Spade suit.

 

N must have all the side suits under control or they'd have chosen a different way to bid their hand.

What N is worried about is trumps.

So N asks about trumps.

 

 

This is an example of a mature advanced or expert SA or 2/1 GF partnership where N&S trust each other's bids to be "on system". If you aren't that mature as a partnership or as a player, or if you want to take a more conservative route, both my original post and lot's of other people's have shown alternate but equally effective ways of getting to 6♠.

 

I hope this answers all your questions.