awm Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Against one of the best pairs at the local club, you pick up the following hand: [hv=d=w&v=b&s=skj6haqjdak875c74]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] LHO is dealer. The auction starts: 1♣(1) - Pass - 1♦(2) - 2♦(3)3♣ - 3♦ - Pass - ??? (1) "Could be short;" basically standard openings except 1♦ shows 5+, so anything without 5 cards in a non-clubs suit is opening 1♣. (2) Artificial; no 5-card major. Otherwise could be any hand (but 1♣ is not forcing). (3) Your first call of the auction, a natural overcall in diamonds. Feel free to disagree. Now what? Partner's 3♦ is competitive, should show some values but it's not a limit raise or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I would try 3H, my hand is too good to give up on game. I plan on passing 4H and shooting out the moysian. If X of 1D is takeout of clubs I would bid that, if it's not I like 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 LHO has 10-11, partner is 5-7 and RHO has 5-7 also. Best hand for partner with ♠Q, ♦Q 4th and ♣K doesn't make any game. pass looks best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I would try 3H, my hand is too good to give up on game. I plan on passing 4H and shooting out the moysian. If X of 1D is takeout of clubs I would bid that, if it's not I like 2D. Agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Why not bid 1NT natural on our first turn? I don't think that should need a club stopper since the opening bid is 1+ clubs. At this point I prefer 3♥ only marginally over pass, I think either could just be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foo Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I hate this auction thus far. I agree with Justin that Game is still very much a possibility, but where? If neither pd nor I has any ♣ stops, 5♦ looks like it could be quite a stretch even opposite my 6 loser =3352 18 count. Advancer needs 4 cover cards for Us to make 5♦. I fnd it ironic that Josh, who criticized a NT call by me in a different competitive auction because my hand did not have a stop of Opener's suit, is now advocating a NT call w/o a stop in Opener's suit... I feel endplayed into either passing or bidding 3♥ or 4♦, and I do not like my choices. This is MPs, not Red @ IMPs. I think I'd end up being a chicken and passing....and hating it. My preferred choice would be to start with X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I don't like a (natural) 1NT overcall on this hand assuming this is even available in the partnership in question. I think that the hand is a bit too strong. Admitted, the upper range for a NT overcall is a bit stronger than a strong NT opening. Even so, this is a phenomenal 18 count. All the Aces and Kings scream suit play. Throw in the fact that you don't have a Club stopper and I'd be unwilling to call 1NT at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I don't like a (natural) 1NT overcall on this hand assuming this is even available in the partnership in question. I think that the hand is a bit too strong. Admitted, the upper range for a NT overcall is a bit stronger than a strong NT opening. Even so, this is a phenomenal 18 count. All the Aces and Kings scream suit play. Throw in the fact that you don't have a Club stopper and I'd be unwilling to call 1NT at the table. Agree. I'd upgrade this hand to 19, which is too strong for a 1NT overcall for me. Except for that, I agree that 1NT doesn't have to promise a ♣ stopper here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Lol when was that Foo? I have no memory of that at all but I have two guesses. One is that your hand was notably worse than this, and the other is that the opening bid, unlike here, promised more than 1 card. If you are such a fan anyway of making this 1NT bid without a stopper in their "suit" then wouldn't this hand where the suit hasn't even been promised and we have plenty of values be an obvious candidate? The problem with 2♦ here to me is it is going to be passed out when we have game unless partner has diamond support. When he is any balanced hand with 2 diamonds like 4324 etc. and say an 8 count we miss 3NT with our 2♦ bid. Of course it could turn out to be a better partscore but I think that aspect of the decision is a bit random, meaning sometimes 1NT is better sometimes 2♦ is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I don't like a (natural) 1NT overcall on this hand assuming this is even available in the partnership in question. I think that the hand is a bit too strong. Admitted, the upper range for a NT overcall is a bit stronger than a strong NT opening. Even so, this is a phenomenal 18 count. All the Aces and Kings scream suit play. Throw in the fact that you don't have a Club stopper and I'd be unwilling to call 1NT at the table. The upper range for a 1NT overcall is sandwich seat should be even stronger still than directly over an opening bid. We are very exposed to being doubled here. As for the hand being good for suit play, we still get to the 5-3 major suit fit after 1NT (in fact much more easily than after 2♦ if partner is weak). So I might miss a brilliant diamond contract, oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Yeah I would really love to be able to X, what is the best meaning for X in this auction (anyone)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 I think x is equivalent to a x of a precision 1D bid, or of a could be short 1C bid, values and the majors (ambiguous as to minors) or a big hand. Of course, there is some risk that partner might think you have diamonds, but wait, you have that also! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 Why not bid 1NT natural on our first turn? I don't think that should need a club stopper since the opening bid is 1+ clubs. At this point I prefer 3♥ only marginally over pass, I think either could just be right. Ditto that. I'd add that having played somewhat similar 1♣ openings, you do not need a club stopper. If a club stopper is a problem, check on that later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshs Posted July 2, 2007 Report Share Posted July 2, 2007 What Adam should have also said is that his partner looked pretty sleepy, so probably would not have understand what is going on anyway.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I am unclear why a double of 1 ♦, supposedly an artificialish bid, should not be takeout of clubs, the only natural (or seminatural) bid that has been made so far? Please, enlighten me. DHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Hi everyone I play that (1M)-p-(1NT)-X is a takeout double of the suit opened. (1m)-p-(1NT)-X is also a takeout double of the suit opened. The (1C)-p-(1D) denying a five card suit is something fairly close to 1C-1NT so I would guess to use the same type meaning for a double. Double ! and I tend to agree on the meaning of double in this auction. B) Regards, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Why not bid 1NT natural on our first turn? I don't think that should need a club stopper since the opening bid is 1+ clubs. I don't think 2♦ is what caused the problem. If something, it actually helped since it brought pard into the pic. If you had bid 1NT, it might have gone 1♣ pass 1♦ 1NT3♣ pass pass ?? or 1♣ pass 1♦ 1NT3♣ dbl pass ?? I prefer to take my chances in the current auction ;) I'll pass pard's 3♦ since we'll have at most one stopper and not enough quick tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I think 2D is a terrible call, I prefer double and 1NT. Now I would bid 3H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I passed at the table, thinking that 3NT is not likely to make even if I find partner with the ♦Q plus a club stopper, as we simply don't have enough tricks and the clubs are going to run eventually. While this was true enough, it turns out we have a major suit fit and game, and 3♦ making 4 didn't score very well. Partner's hand: ♠AQ♥98xxxx♦J9x♣xx The heart king is offside but ten tricks in hearts are relatively straightforward. The diamond queen is falling doubleton as well (you don't need this in 4♥ of course, but it's the reason for the overtrick in 3♦). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foo Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Starting with X should get you to 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 On the actual hand, double or 1NT would have worked fine if partner interprets them correctly. However, there was a substantial risk that (having never discussed this auction) partner might misinterpret those bids. I also dislike doubling on 3352 on general principle -- we will often reach an inferior partial when partner prefers a major with 4M+4♦ for example. In many auctions bidding the diamonds will find a better partial, because partner will only bid a five card major, and in any case there is often an opportunity to double for takeout later in the auction to show almost exactly this shape (double first and bid diamonds later shows a strong one-suiter, not this hand). I do find it amusing that for a lot of people it seems that "double is takeout of clubs, because clubs are the only naturally bid suit in this auction" but "1NT does not require a club stopper, because clubs have not been bid naturally." It seems mildly inconsistant, although I suppose any agreements would probably help here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 I do find it amusing that for a lot of people it seems that "double is takeout of clubs, because clubs are the only naturally bid suit in this auction" but "1NT does not require a club stopper, because clubs have not been bid naturally." It seems mildly inconsistant, although I suppose any agreements would probably help here. I don't think any person tried to make both those points, just a lot of people made either one or the other. It's the kind of things most decent partnerships have sort of beta-agreements about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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