Simple Enough

[hrothgar]

Here's a hand that cropped up in a tournament this morning. I was curious what folks might bid.

 

You hold

 

♠ J863

♥ AT5

♦ 864

♣ KJ3

 

The auction starts

 

(1♥) - X - (P) - ???

 

What's your call?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would go with 1NT.

 

1S is not a very encouraging call.

and I dont like 2S, so 1NT it is,

we will loose the spades, but may

reach game.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

1nt.

 

The bidding may not be over yet. Plan to bid 2s over 2h by lho.

[pbleighton]

In response to partner's takeout double, I will jump with 9. It's a lousy 9, but I still bid 2S. It's close, I wouldn't criticize 1S or 1NT.

 

Peter

[kenrexford]

I would bid 1♠, although I can understand and sympathize with 1NT.

 

This is easier with Herbert Negatives, somewhat. Strangely, the way I played Herbert Neg's (have not done this for many years, though) would be 1NT as a spade positive.

[helene_t]

2♠, 3NT is unlikely to be the best game if partner has his usual four spades. We can always get back to notrump if he hasn't four spades, and he has extras.

[paulg]

I'd bid 1♠. Easier if you are playing courtesy raises when you'd be able to make a try if partner has 4-card support and a fair hand. Otherwise the slight underbid will make it easier to compete later on.

[foo]

I would bid 1♠, although I can understand and sympathize with 1N.

 

This is easier with Herbert Negatives, somewhat.  Strangely, the way I played Herbert Neg's (have not done this for many years, though) would be 1NT as a spade positive.

You hold

♠ J863 ♥ AT5 ♦ 864 ♣ KJ3

 

Agreed. This might be 9 HCP, but's it's a miserable hand regardless.

I'm downgrading it considerably given the 10 loser 4333 shape.

 

Even if We have ♠ fit, this hand may very well play better in NT than ♠'s, but I want to toss some cold water on this auction rather than risking pd bidding a thin game that rates to be a disaster.

[gwnn]

2♠, 3NT is unlikely to be the best game if partner has his usual four spades. We can always get back to notrump if he hasn't four spades, and he has extras.

100% agree

[awm]

I'd go with 1♠. Note that game isn't great opposite a hand like:

 

♠KQxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣Axxx

 

There are certainly some chances, but the club queen is probably more likely to be with opener than not, and even if club queen is on you will likely need spades to break. I would bid 4♠ over 2♠ with a hand like the one above without really thinking about it.

 

I have no real interest in notrump holding a stopper of ace-third opposite probable shortness and most entries in the long heart hand.

[kenberg]

I'm going to bid a spade. I don't know if it's right but it's my call. I have (I hope it's enough on topic to be OK) a follow-up question. If I bid 1S and if, say, lho bids 2H and it goes pass-pass, does a double now show approximately this? ie some defense, not particularly for penalties, showing four not five spades and more values than have been expressed so far?

 

When I bid 1S it is with the expectation that a later double by me of 2H (from either opponent) would be treated this way. If this isn't so, trouble is brewing.

[han]

Interesting problem, I think I'm bidding 2S.

 

I agree that this is a poor 9-count but if partner has heart shortness then the 4333 is not a big minus. Also, all of our points are potentially working (compare with heart king and club ace for instance, which would definitely be worse).

 

My second choice is 1S and I think that 1NT is reasonable as well. So I don't have a strong preference.

[kenrexford]

I'd go with 1♠. Note that game isn't great opposite a hand like:

 

♠KQxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣Axxx

Yeah, and partner would clearly make a courtesy raise to 2♠ with that hand.

 

I suppose this questions begs a second question. What are folks making raises on these days? If you are jumping to 2♠ with this junk, then you must not have any courtesy raises. Heck, it would take a lot to get me to bid again even after a courtesy raise of spades. I may very well do it, but with great fear and loathing.

[pclayton]

I think there are two reasonable approaches.

 

Start with 1S and double 2H (assuming they bid it, which seems likely) if thats defined as cooperative.

 

Start with 1N and compete to 2S over 2H.

 

I like the second approach. This hand looks notrumpy with the 4333 and the H 10.

[Guest Jlall]

I thought this was an obvious 1S, surprised by the wide variety of answers, good problem.

 

I think the hand is just plain not good enough for 2S though I admit partner is going to pass 1S with some awkward 16 counts with 3 spades that make 3N, I think we just rate to get too high too often by bidding 2S on a 4333 9 count with bad trumps. If the opps later bid 2H I will have an easy X describing my hand perfectly.

 

1N is more interesting than I gave it credit for initially and the fact that it shows some values while not overstating my hand is nice, especially when RHO cannot raise hearts as partner might have some heart help. Still, it just seems very hard to get back to spades after bidding 1N and very easy to get to NT after bidding 1S and I don't want to risk getting to a silly NT contract instead of spades by bidding 1N.

[Guest Jlall]

If I bid 1S and if, say, lho bids 2H and it goes pass-pass, does a double now show approximately this? ie some defense,  not particularly for penalties, showing four not five spades and more values than have been expressed so far?

Just saw this post, yes it shows exactly that in modern bridge.

[Codo]

In SEF this is an easy 2 spade, not even close to 1 Spade.

 

With the club and HEart holding switched, a 1 NT bid looks like an idea but with this hand 2 Spade is easy

[cherdano]

I'd go with 1♠. Note that game isn't great opposite a hand like:

 

♠KQxx ♥x ♦Axxx ♣Axxx

Yeah, and partner would clearly make a courtesy raise to 2♠ with that hand.

 

I suppose this questions begs a second question. What are folks making raises on these days? If you are jumping to 2♠ with this junk, then you must not have any courtesy raises. Heck, it would take a lot to get me to bid again even after a courtesy raise of spades. I may very well do it, but with great fear and loathing.

I don't think this is close to a raise in standard.

(I.e. there is no "courtesy raise" in standard.)

[skjaeran]

To me this is a rather obvious 1♠ response. 1NT is good on values, but we can still get to NT later if the bidding goes on.

 

I'm very comfortable if I'm later able to make a "values" double.

 

2♠ is a clear overbid with this holding IMHO, though I know many would choose that.

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I'm in the 1♠ camp

[Fluffy]

myagreements is 2♠ shows 8-11 with 4 cards, yet I think this is not worth that.

[jdonn]

I think the appeal behind 1NT is completely deceptive and that this is an obvious 1♠ bid. We have just one stopper unless partner can help, and we have a four card major that partner almost surely has. Meanwhile if we belong in 3NT we will still get there almost always. These are the sorts of hands where I hate when my partner tries to be a genius.

 

Anyone bidding 2♠ either is not playing bridge as it exists to me or is paying too much attention to high card points.

[kenrexford]

I think the hand is just plain not good enough for 2S though I admit partner is going to pass 1S with some awkward 16 counts with 3 spades that make 3N...

I'm not sure with what "awkward 16 counts" partner will pass where 3NT makes and partner should not have bid 1NT instead of doubling, but otherwise we agree.

 

Implicit in your omission is that you apparently also make courtesy raises. I'm curious about a few things, thinking through this problem with a prior problem.

 

First, for you, what makes for a 2♠ call from Doubler?

 

Second, what's a 2♠ call for you as Advancer?

 

The way I understand things, 2♠ by Advancer shows a five-card suit and not necessarily HCP strength, whereas 1♠ can be somewhat meaty when holding four cards. 2♠ by Doubler indicates four spades and non-minimum, meaning roughly six dummy tricks (four honors and a stiff; five honors and a doubleton). Something like that. KQxx-x-Axxx-Axxx would work.

 

With seven dummy tricks, maybe KQxx-x-AQxx-Axxx, would Doubler jump to 3♠ or cue 2♥? Or, am I in a strange world of my own personal fantasy again? LOL

[foo]

Implicit in your omission is that you apparently also make courtesy raises. I'm curious about a few things, thinking through this problem with a prior problem.

 

First, for you, what makes for a 2♠ call from Doubler?

 

Second, what's a 2♠ call for you as Advancer?

 

The way I understand things, 2♠ by Advancer shows a five-card suit and not necessarily HCP strength, whereas 1♠ can be somewhat meaty when holding four cards. 2♠ by Doubler indicates four spades and non-minimum, meaning roughly six dummy tricks (four honors and a stiff; five honors and a doubleton). Something like that. KQxx-x-Axxx-Axxx would work.

 

With seven dummy tricks, maybe KQxx-x-AQxx-Axxx, would Doubler jump to 3♠ or cue 2♥? Or, am I in a strange world of my own personal fantasy again? LOL

OK, 1st the basics of Advancing a T/O X.

 

1S= minimum, say 9+ losers and 0-9 HCP

2S= Medium, 8 losers and it looks like an Invite. say 9-11 or a soft 12 HCP

3S= MAX, 7 losers and it looks like a GF

4S= GF hand with a self sufficient trump suit

2H!= This is an Invite with D+C or a GF that is not sure as to direction.

 

Now that we have that out of the way, we can look at what makes a logical raise by the T/O X'er

X-1S;2S=

Advancer can have some miserable hands here, but figure that they have a ordinary 2 cover card minimum and ~6-8 HCP. So a raise here by the X'er has to have the playing strength of ~15-17 HCP and 6- losers or an exceptional 7 loser hand.

Your example of KQxx.x.Axxx.Axxx is a control rich 6 loser hand worth 16 Dummy points. An easy raise of whatever Advancer bid below game.

 

With KQxx.x.AQxx.Axxx, X'er is good enough to bid 4S, but not good enough to cue bid opposite a 1S or 2S Advance. OTOH, opposite a 3S or higher Advance...

 

Make X'er's hand a 4 loser T/O double, and they have enough to cue bid opposite =any= spade Advance.

[Guest Jlall]

Implicit in your omission is that you apparently also make courtesy raises.

I don't know why this is implicit, I don't know what a courtesy raise is but to me 2S shows a good hand. If partner doesn't have enough to bid 2S I'm not worried about missing a game. It doesn't show a great hand but like 15 or 16 is fine. I don't understand bidding again with a minimum if the opps are no longer bidding. This makes sense to me in the context of playing 1S=not enough to bid 2S. I do play that 1H X p 1S 2H 2S does not show much more than 4 trumps.