Assign the blame

[twcho]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sa5haj98dk6cakj93&s=st84hk5daq732cqt6]133|200|Scoring: IMP

N　　　S

2N(1)　3♠(2)

3N(3)　4♣(4)

4♥(5)　4N(6)

5♣(7)　6♦

PASS[/hv]

(1) 20-21

(2) Transfer to 3N

(3) Must bid 3N

(4) ♦, slam try

(5) cue bid in ♥ supporting ♦

(6) keycard in ♦

(7) 1 or 4 keys

 

♦ breaks 51 so 6 is cold down while 7♣ is cold made with ♥ breaking not worse than 52 and ♣ not worse than 41 (actually ♥ 43 and ♣ 32)

 

What goes wrong in the bidding? Can anyone bid to 7♣ with these hands?

[awm]

It seems relatively easy after a 1♣ opening....

 

I've never really understood the incentive to open off-shape 2NT calls like this. After all, playing the typical 2NT opening range (20-21) you're not that likely to miss a game if partner is passing your one-level opening, and it's easy to imagine 1♣ being a better partial than 2NT if partner is broke. When partner has a good hand, you can develop your shape in a natural way (starting with clubs, reversing or jump shifting into hearts, and then trying notrump if partner makes discouraging noises) and get to the best game or slam with much higher frequency than over the space-eliminating 2NT opening.

[the hog]

Maybe not 7C, but I think your methods are poor.

1) Forcing to slam on a 5332 shape opposite a 20-22 hand is poor judgement.

2) If the Nth hand can have the shape shown, then South's judgement is even worse than suggested in 1) above, as there may be many alternative strains. Don't your methods permit you to find these accurately?

3) I prefer a 1C opening.

[Impact]

A. The 2NT opening

I understand (particularly with the DK6) the opening of 2NT - but it is not for nothing that 2NT is often described as "slamkiller". Hands which 5422 and particularly 6322 will provide far more options in suit contracts. Moreover this hand is MUCH better than 20-21 (see below)

 

B. the D slam-try by South

is completely misconceived :not because the hand is not worthy of a slam-try, but because the slam-try should be made as a BALANCED hand keeping options open as for suit play: 5332 is clearly a balanced shape!

Aside from the particular hand it is only necessary to reflect on the number of different potential contracts: NT, C or S opposite a normal 5332 North hand which are likely to be far superior to D ....

Unless you have an agreement to the contrary, a single-suited slam-try should promise at least a 6 card suit.

 

C. North's acceptance of the slam-try: his hand is all prime (and has a source of tricks) despite minimum straight HCP and only doubleton D. However, assuming he expected a 6+ card D suit this was actually a GOOD bid as I would evaluate the hand as excellent in response to any slam try!!!

 

ANALYSIS of blame: 10-15% to North for opening 2NT with a hand which is very comfortable starting with 1C and reversing to give a picture of the hand. Incidentally I would evaluate the North hand as too STRONG for a 20-21HCP 2NT: those A are worth extra and the only J are long with Honour concentrations and intermediates. On a "HCP" scale I would evaluate this hand as closer to 23 than 21!!

 

By contrast, the vast majority of the blame (85-90%) should be accorded South who has a quantitative slam-try opposite a "20-21" balanced hand.

 

Aside from relay systems for whom bidding 7C should be child's play

 

eg P=16+ 2C= D singlesuiter

2D= relay 2S= D singlesuiter with <3H

2NT= relay 3C= 3-2-5-3

3D= relay 3NT= 8-11HCP with 3 controlpoints (A=2)

4C= relay 4H= topD, no top S

4S=relay 4NT=no CA/K

5C=R 5S= top H, 2nd top D, no SQ

5NT=R 6D= CQ but no DJ

7C = conclusion (as placed HK, DAQ, CQ), noting that had South held Jxx Kx AQxxx xxx he would have bid 6C and North have passed to last relay!! (note it would be easyusing AKQ points too as the vital Q would be known early as denials imply C Hon earlier).

 

 

Bidding playing rudimentary standard agreements perhaps:-

 

1C 1D

1H forcing unbal 3C invitational

4D Kickback 4H= 1KC

4S TQ? 5H= yes & HK but no SK

5NT more? 6C= no

Pass probably

It would take a push (but conceivable) for North to bid &c on the inference that South's 1D bid would be on 5, since he did not bid NT, but bid 1D and depend on other systemic inferences...

 

Even opposite a 2NT opening (and this hand is a decent 22/3 count if you want to treat it as balanced) but if it had started as 2NT showing 20-21 so a quantitative invitation is appropriate:-

 

2NT 4NT

5C accepting and suggesting suit 5D cue

5H 5NT (HK)

6C

 

 

If opener had shown balanced 22-24, I think this is a good enough responder's hand to insist on slam, and even investigate grandslam.

 

Slightly more sophisticated methods include CONFI and SUPERCONFI where having determined the slam range for balanced hands, you check for controls before investigating suit prospects (CONFI is only a slam try but SUPERCONFI assumes 6NT at worst).

Once you have determined a reasonably sophisticated system such as a puppet 3S to 3NT (and presumably a direct 3NT in response to 2NT puppets to 4C) you have room to use extensions of the puppet to ask for controls...

under those circumstances 7C IS still tough to bid because it has to assume that responder will find 1 control missing, and find that it is a non-essential control (eg equivalent of alternative hand for opener Ax AQx Kxx AKxxx with at least 2 additional Jacks, but note that minor Js make 7C excellent- and you need more for a 23count: so minor Js make it almost cold, Major Js means you require 32 breaks or at least 1 plus a squeeze)

 

regards

[Codo]

I won´t open this hand 2 NT but I understand people who will.

 

After 2 NT, south should bid 4 NT inviting, balanced

North will accept and has different possibilities:

-To bid 6 Club in his 5 card suit if you agree to this tool

-or anything else and he will reach 6 NT.

6 Club of course is much superior. (A priori 6 Diamond is better then 6 NT too..)

 

After my prefered 1 Club opening, we would bid:

 

1 ♣ 1 ♦

2♥ 3 ♣ (GF twosuiter, Fit)

3♦ 3 ♥ (Cuebids)

4 ♣ 4 ♥ (RCKB, good hand, one KC)

4 ♠ 5 ♥ (Q of Trump? Yes and King of H, no other king)

6 ♣ (chicken)

 

If I had been behind in a team match or in fighting mood, I could have tried 5 Spade instead of 6 Club to ask for something extra. I would hear about the good diamonds and will have a shoot at 7 ♣, but in reality I would stay in 6.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I bid this in my Big Club method and also after a 20-21HCP 2NT playing standard methods and each time I finished at 6C(using CONFIT both times to find the fit)

 

Playing standard methods and opening this hand 1C, I bid to 7C

 

1C-1D-2H-3C*-3D*-3H*-4H*-4S*-4NT*-5NT*-7C

 

3C*=game forcing(I use the cheaper of 4th suit or 2NT to show minimum hands)

3D*=cue(not shortness)

3H*=cue

4H*=Kickback RKC for clubs

4S*=one(4130)

4NT*=asks for the trump queen

5NT*=yes and some higher interest(I would cuebid a King at the five level)

7C=looks like a good diamond suit, which I can ruff good 'if' it is not already solid

 

Maybe I should play more standard type methods. :D

 

Regards,

Robert

[Fluffy]

2NT is not wrong, but it hides clubs forever.

 

An improvement in your sequence is that North doesn't bid 4♥, wich should imply a better support for diamonds. 4NT looks like the correct bid.

[han]

I don't mind the 2NT opening at all but it will cause you to miss club slams occasionally.

 

I think selling a 5332 hand as a 1-suited slam try is misguided.

[cherdano]

1. I don't mind 2N.

2. Showing diamonds is only ok if you can show a balanced hand later. Later on, obviously NS didn't agree on how many diamonds 3S/4C showed.

3. My auction might be 2N-4N-5C-5D-5H-5N-6C-P.

[Free]

Both, you have to have better agreements. If a slam try with 5♦332 is possible, then opener shouldn't accept.

[mikeh]

I'm with those who criticize the 2N opening: it should come as no surprise that N never gets to show his suit.

 

If my partner did open 2N, then I would never even think of showing a ♦ slam try... consider this: if you held a more 'normal' slam try, say AQxxxx, then North, with a control rich hand and a source of tricks absolutely has to cue bid. But when the slam try could be AQxxx, then N absolutely has to reject the try.. so North is guessing... because of the methods chosen. Any method that requires this type of guesswork on purely constructive auctions should be changed.

 

1♣ 1♦

2♥ 3♣

3♠ 4♦

4♥ 4N 4N is not keycard... shows extras but denies a ♠ control

5♦ 5♥

5N 7♣ 5N says still interested in grand, but can't make the decision

 

South has great trump, in context, knows about the ♦K and knows that can expect to ruff one or two ♥s

 

Note the lack of any need for keycard.

[Finch]

Why is 7C such a good contract? Because opener has a 5-card suit (trumps) and a side 4-card suit (hearts) which he can ruff in dummy. That's why people don't like the opening 2NT bid, it has too much potential to play a rounded suit slam. I would also open 1C.

 

That said, I can live with 2NT. I've seen worse 2NT openings, and there a 2425 20-counts that more people would open 2NT (AQ KJxx KJ AQxxx for example).

 

As for what South should have for a diamond slam try, that's really a matter of partnership style. In my methods I would bid 2NT - 3S (artificial) - 3NT (forced) - 4NT (raise to 4NT with a 5- or possibly 6- card siamond suit). I don't have a problem with the principal of having a 5332. After all, many people play 2NT - 3H - 3S - 4NT as a quantitative slam try with a 5-card major; what's wrong with the same approach when you have a minor?

 

The problem is that North was not on the same wavelength. Opposite a slam try with diamonds of the type I describe above, North does _not_ have such a good hand, as he doesn't have the right diamond holding. This type of auction should be catching holdings such as KJ doubleton (which North would otherwise downgrade) as well as good 3/4-card support.

 

We aren't told what all the methods are, but it seems that after North showed suitability, South's only option was RKCB. If 4C was a slam try in diamonds, then what's wrong with ...4H (cue) - 4NT (natural) - 6C (contract suggestion) - Pass. Which I admit has not got you to 7C, but does have the merit of being a good contract.

 

7C is very hard to bid with confidence. Yes, we can construct auctions starting

 

1C - 1D

2H - 3C

 

but I doubt many people at the table would get there and believe it.

[kenrexford]

2NT is fine. Sure, bidding out the 5-4 pattern might also be nice, but I can work with 2NT.

 

Responder, first of all, seems to have a fair bid of 4NT as quantitative. That works. If the style is to bid 4-cards up the line and to bid 5's at slam level, or jump with six-cards (all accepting), then the auction should progress 5♣-5♦-5♥-6♣(delayed, so three)-PPP.

 

Alternativge #2, that I have been using recently, is for 1/2NT-P-4♣ not to be Gerber, but Quantitative, asking for fours up the line. Then, 4♣-P-4♥-P-5♦-P-6♣ works (bypass of 5♣ by Responder makes 6♣ promise 2425).

 

Alternative #3 is through Puppet (Responder does have three spades). Note that 4♣ shows 5+ diamonds, but I'll bet that it shows 2254 or 6+ if Puppet was not used. This strongly suggests that Opener should consider 6♣ after 4♣. But, after Puppet, Opener bids 3♦, Responder bids 4♦. Finding clubs is difficult. So, not going Puppet may be good. I just pointed this alternative out to indicate the inference.

 

Alternative #4 is as done. As mentioned, Opener should focus clubs also. The best approach is the simplest -- jump to 6♣. This should show five clubs and acceptance value but choice, something like held.

 

The blame? Probably most to Opener. Although Responder made a strained election, Opener has no problem coping -- just bid 6♣ and the right contract is found.

[skjaeran]

I haven't got too much against the 2NT opening. Switching the minors I'd probably open 2♣ myself (2♣-2x-2NT=20-21, opening 2NT=22-24 in my methods).

 

This hand I'd open 1♣. Mostly because I play a T-Walsh variation.

 

Our bidding would start 1♣ - 1NT (=10-12). After a 2♥ GF reverse it would be very easy to get to 7♣.

 

In the actual sequence I don't like the 1-suited slam try with a perfectly balanced hand, but that's a matter for agreements.

[pclayton]

I'm with Mike here.

 

I'm reading a lot of 'I dont mind 2N' comments. I can only think of one rationale reason to open 2N - you make the defense to 3N a little tougher when LHO is stuck for a lead.

 

Other than that, whats the attraction? If pard is broke, you dont want to contract for 8 tricks in NT. If pard has a real hand you will rarely get to clubs, which could be the key to slam.

 

Whether you call a 5332 a single suited slam try is a matter of agreement. I play that you need 6 for this sequence. If North thinks South has 6D''s, 4H is fine, but if only 5 then 4H is misguided. North does have great controls and could try 6C over 4D and you'll play there. So I'm blaming this on a disagreement. With the diamond fit South should prefer 6N, so south gets a few points too.

 

North 40 percent , South 20 percent, System 40 percent.

[mike777]

edit