What is the difference between these two doubles?

[rona_]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s632ht9765d74caj2&w=sakj84h8d98cq9874&e=sqt975ha42dajt65c&s=shkqj3dkq32ckt653]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- - 1♠ Dbl

4♠ Pass Pass Dbl

Pass Pass Pass

 

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=s632ht9765d74caj2&w=sakj84h8d98cq9874&e=sqt975ha42dajt65c&s=shkqj3dkq32ckt653]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

Pass Pass 1♥ 2NT

4♥ Pass Pass Dbl

Pass 5♣ Pass Pass

Pass

 

In both hands I was North. I was told off for not bidding on the first hand and bidding on the second. In another thread, I understood from bid-them-up's post that the second double on the first hand is definitely for take out. 2NT was for the minors on hand No.2. :)

[rona_]

Forgot to mention the obvious. In both cases vulnerability was the same, and opponents bidding the same.

 

 

Rona

[han]

On both hands south was way off. The first hand is not worth the second double. The second hand.. what on earth was 2NT??? I think you did well to pull on the second one, I'd expect a strong 2-1-5-5 shape from partner.

[Echognome]

Agree with Han.

 

It looks like on board 1 they are cold for 12 tricks as South is on lead and must win the 2nd diamond. Thus, EW can make all of their trumps separately on the cross ruff plus 2 Aces.

[skjaeran]

On the first hand I'd have bid 5♥ over the 2nd double, expecting to make. If your partner for example had the ♦A instead of the queen, he'd had his double (only just), and 5♥ would have play. Of course your partner had a clear pass over 4♠.

 

On the 2nd hand your partners actions was ridiculous. He's shown a strong 55+ in the minors. 5♣ was a nice bid.

[vuroth]

On the first hand, you haven't promised partner anything, so his double should (imo) be based on his own hand alone. Why pull the double when you have exactly what you told him you have?

 

On the second, all I can think is that 2NT was meant to be a strong (>17 point) hand. (Please, please tell me it wasn't unusual 2NT....) I think the rule of thumb is that undiscussed bids are natural, and a natural 2NT has to be strong (doesn't it?). Knowing partner is strong and doubling, I'd be passing as fast as I could and hoping to collect a big score on defense.

 

If, on the other hand, you interpreted his 2NT as unusual, then I would think that you would have to interpret the double as asking you to pick a minor, because with an unusual 2NT hand, partner can't possibly want to play defense.

 

0.02

 

V, novice

[bid_em_up]

In another thread, I understood from bid-them-up's post that the second double on the first hand is definitely for take out.

Huh? I don't recall saying that specifically. What I believe I said was that "it is still considered to be a takeout double with a much stronger hand".

 

South doesn't have that in hand #1. He already told his story with his initial takeout double, his hand hasn't improved significantly on the auction. If South cannot stand to defend, then he should bid 4N (takeout) at this point. If he tries to reopen with a double indicating a stronger hand, he may well find himself defending a makeable contract (as was the case).

 

Who knows what South was thinking on hand #2. On the auction, I would expect South to be 3-0-5-5 and very strong. I would be inclined to sit for the double. The weaker and more balanced my hand is, the stronger and more able to cash tricks in our "fit" partner is likely to be.

[Fluffy]

The meaning of this doubles is

 

1♠ X take out

4♠ X still take out, but at this level pass with balanced is expected

 

 

On the other

 

4♥ X I have a very strong hand, can make 5m almost by myself, but I can play 4♥ X also if you don't have support on my suits.

[rona_]

In another thread, I understood from bid-them-up's post that the second double on the first hand is definitely for take out.

Huh? I don't recall saying that specifically. What I believe I said was that "it is still considered to be a takeout double with a much stronger hand".

 

South doesn't have that in hand #1. He already told his story with his initial takeout double, his hand has'nt improved significantly on the auction. If South cannot stand to defend, then he should bid 4N (takeout) at this point. If he tries to reopen with a double indicating a stronger hand, he may well find himself defending a makeable contract (as was the case).

 

Who knows what South was thinking on hand #2. On the auction, I would expect South to be 3-0-5-5 and very strong. I would be inclined to sit for the double. The weaker and more balanced my hand is, the stronger and more able to cash tricks in our "fit" partner is likely to be.

Sorry! I cannot find the thread and it isn't in your posts, so it might not have been you or I could have misunderstood what you meant. :) Will find it eventually but it might take me a few days.

[helene_t]

There's no difference between the two doubles, both are strong and take-out oriented, i.e. typically with a singleton in the enemy trump. That S happened to have zero enemy trumps on the first board is no crime but it might as well have been the other way round.

 

On both boards it's not obvious if you should pass or bid, but the doubleton enemy trump plus your knowledge of a double fit makes it more attractive to bid on the second. So your decision were probably fine in both cases.

 

I don't like your partner's bidding. I won't go as far as to call them ridicolous but surely his choices were more subject to critique than yours.

[cherdano]

The difference between these two doubles is that partner found different ways to misbid his hand. The second double on 1 is still takeout, just showing more strength than the first one; on this one it is a clear overbid.

The second double just shows that partner has a STRONG 2N overcall. I am not sure I would call it takeout, it doesn't show more shape than 2N, just a lot more points.

I think I would have done the same as you did on both hands, on no. 1 it is close, though.