Should I start from scratch?

[bestguru]

The setup for this was way to long so I moved it to the end and hid it in case anyone is curious:

 

My question is "Should I try to forget everything I have learned and start from scratch, or am I just letting my frustration get the best of me?" I am leaning towards starting over. I think I need to try to forget what I know, even such simple things as HCP, and then come up with a list of questions to ask my self when I pick up my hand, when the dummy comes down, after any surprises, and after the hand is over. It seems logical that by starting with a well chosen set of simple questions instead of a bunch of "rules of thumb" could lead to forming good habits from the start. My starting question will probably be "what is/was my shape and dummy's shape?" What do you think a good questions would be to add after that?

 

 

 

I think I have picked up enough bad habits to just about ruin my chances of being decent at bridge. A big portion of the blame for that surely lies on my shoulders since I am a self taught bridge player. I reached a fairly low plateau and then became frustrated enough with my inability to progress to stop playing for a while.

 

I've still been reading about bridge. Today, I came across these words in an article on counting by Richard Pavlicek, "Do not count the missing trumps!". This made me realize that I do have the bad habit of counting the opp's trumps and figuring out how they might break instead of looking at my hand and dummy's and then thinking of the way's the cards could be divided amongst all four hands. This leads to me usually being able to figure out when one opp is out and how many the other opp still has, but I am never able to concentrate on more than one suit or use one suit's counts to help count another.

 

So I think I need to work on fixing my shape and dummy's shape in my mind before I begin to plan the play. Thinking about this I realized that I should also fix my shape in my mind before I plan my bidding. Of course the first thing I do when I look at my hand is count my HCP. I have gotten to the point of looking at my shape to adjust my HCP. I tend to look at shape as an adjusting factor instead of an important fact of themselves. This all lead me to think about a slew of bad habits I have (everything from learning too many exciting conventions for me to be able to use effectively to going down in cold contracts by looking for a way to make some sort of impossible squeeze to magically develop)

 

 

 

[helene_t]

Have you read the book "Why you loose at bridge"?

 

I don't think you should start completely from scratch (counting HCPs are still usefull in some situations). But there are certain "bad habbits" that many self-taught bridge players, as well as players who learned bridge from bad teachers or who learned bridge a long time ago, show consistently. Then it might be necesarry to forget everything one knows about:

- Overcalls and take-out doubles. Many players have completely flawed ideas about the objective of entering the auction after opps opened. The fact is that since overcall decisions should depend on many factors, it is imposible to devise rules for overcalls like the rules for openings and responses to openings. You really need to know what the purpose of an overcall and a t/o double is.

- Basic bidding system. Modern bidding systems, whether you choose Strong Club or something like SA, are very formalized. It is probably easier to learn a modern bidding system from scratch instead of trying to mold the old happbits into something modern by gradual evolution.

- Slam bidding. If the way you bid slams is to ask for aces as soon as you get the idea that you might have slam, you're probably better of throwing Blackwood and Gerber in the trash. Start bidding slams with simple quantitative bidding, i.e. whenever 3♥ is forcing it may be stronger than 4♥ and otherwise the generic slam try is 5♥. Once you master this, you can discuss slam conventions (cue-bids, splinters, keycards) with p.

- Competitive bidding. Many players keep justifying their bad decision by "I had so many points so I had to bid", "I had so few points so I had to pass", or "I couldn't let you play 2♠, I had a singleton spade". Larry Cohen's "To bid or not to bid" and Bergen's "Points, Schmoints!" give simple and useful advice.

- Opening leads.

- Signalling.

 

Some five years ago I started pretty much from scratch, at least with respect to bidding. For about one year I hardly played any boards, just read and read and read. Three subscriptions to bridge journals (reading all the bidding theory articles several times) plus some twenty books about bidding theory. My card play is still full of bad habbits but I think this starting-from-scratch was necesary in order to become reasonably good at bidding.

[vuroth]

Interesting perspective, hélène. I had thought that by reading a lot and playing very little, I wasn't helping myself much. Maybe it's not so bad....

[pclayton]

I cant read the hidden text on my PDA so I dont know what the issue stems from.

 

A lot of this depends on how good you want to get. if you are satisified with playing a steady social game then dont worry too much about it. Read a book when you feel like it and if a hand really bothers you then post it here. 95 percent of the players out there are perfectly content doing this.

 

If you are serious, and Id wager most of us on BBF are, then this isnt the right approach. Playing more does not improve your game unless you take the time to analyze your hands and evaluate alternative approaches to bidding and play as well as your mistakes. As a matter of fact I believe that most people actually get worse if they are just playing. Golf is no different. Bad habits develop with repetition.

 

Read read and read. Kibitz your favorite player, but only view his/her hand and try to emulate their decisions. Id be curious to know what others opinion of an optimum 'play / practice.' ratio is.

 

You cant start over. If you want to relearn some basics, go ahead.

[mikeh]

I agree, more or less, with Phil.

 

I think that a major issue for newer players is that it is almost impossible to get games with the best players in the local area.... even if you find a flight B or C pro (see other current thread), the odds are that that pro is not one of the best players around, and you may not be willing or able to pay to learn.

 

And it is impossible, in my view, for a beginner to discern the difference between good club level players and those who actually know a lot about the game. In terms of the players, at our main local club, who win most of the masterpoints each year, one is a fine player, and very knowledgable, while the others are frequent players who know how to beat up on bad opponents but who never do well in tough fields... how is the beginner to know the difference?

 

My advice for the beginning player is to read a lot, and to play a lot, but, when playing, don't pay attention to what partner has to say, unless you have somehow got a game with one of the top 2 or 3 players in your club. Instead, make a note of hands where you have any suspicion that things ought to have been done differently.

 

In conjunction, if you are lucky, you find the game at which the largest number of the best players play and hope that some of them go to a bar afterwards to rehash the hands. Invite yourself along.... spend most of your time (until you are fully accepted) listening and occasionally asking questions.

 

Ask the better players (individually, in private so that they can be candid) who the best bidder is.. or the best declarer.. or the best defender...(other than themselves, of course :)) the better players will probably have an overly optimistic view of their own abilities, but the consensus of the abilities of the other top players will be very accurate. Most experts are happy to answer questions, so long as the asker seems to want to learn.

 

In addition to this, and as an alternative if this route is unavailable, spend most of your time online kibitizing good games. This is easy to do on BBO, with all of the truly world class teamgames etc.

 

Whether it be vugraph or a practice or casual match, you will usually find a handful, or more, of experts watching. Most will be happy, if time permits, to answer questions... whether about the hands being played or questions about hands the asker has played.

 

As with real life, it is not going to be easy to tell which experts know the most about bidding theory, or defensive theory. The 'star' system on BBO, for example, is only an approximate guide... there is a HUGE range of abilities within the stars.. but, again, if you ask a number of players who they consider the best- or the most knowledgable, the consensus will be pretty accurate.

 

When watching, the toughest thing to do is to put yourself in the position of the players... since most watch seeing all 52 cards. The winning play or bid is often not the correct (percentage) play or bid, and even the best players in the world make mistakes. But the best players make fewer and more subtle mistakes than the rest of us.

 

So read, watch, play, and ask questions.... and alway, always remember that the correct action is NOT to be judged on the actual hand. And don't assume that a good result meant you did something right or that a bad result means you screwed up.

[Fluffy]

I think more or less like others.

 

Try to avoid wrong advices, people who talk much is often the people who lecture partner after a bad result no matter whose fault it really was.

 

To learn you need someone you can trust to tell you what is plain wrong, bad, or just a tough decision that turned badly.

 

Forums is a very good area for that, but you won't post all the deals in here.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

another recommendation: try to find a mentor and a partner.

Bridge is a partnership game (repeat it), you need a partner

to work with. It does you no good, knowing all books, but

have a partner, who does not.

 

Working on a partnership is work, this means bidding training

(use BBO) and face to face discussion.

 

Keep a paper with you, note down anything worth while, discuss

with partner on the next day, not after the board is finished, giving

you (and partner) time to reflect.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[HeavyDluxe]

I'd like to chip in here, if I can. I hope this doesn't constitute a threadjack.

 

Should I try to forget everything I have learned and start from scratch, or am I just letting my frustration get the best of me?

I'm feeling much the same as bestguru... I learned the very basics of the game as a teen and never could find anyone to play with once I moved out to go to college. I know I have a ton of bad habits.

 

Kibitz your favorite player, but only view his/her hand and try to emulate their decisions. Id be curious to know what others opinion of an optimum 'play / practice.' ratio is.

I think this is great advice that leads me to ask three questions:

1) I know how to download hands via the webpage... But is there a way to get one of the 'movie' files for past team matches (thinking of the 'Cayne vs Matches' here) so you don't have 50 files to work through...?

 

2) Is there a way to open a movie file so you only see one hand, recreating kibitzing one person live?

 

3) Does anyone know of some hands that are 'annotated' a la what chess players do with chess games? I'd be interested to see a handful of deals marked up with the "what I was thinking of" kinda comments of a good player.

 

another recommendation: try to find a mentor and a partner.

I've tried signing up for the BBO mentor program through the BIL. I'm early in that process (and having a little trouble crossing paths with my mentor). However, I'd love to have a regular partner to work on these things with. If anyone's interested, either in helping or partnering, please let me know.

 

Thanks for the helpful stuff I always find in these forums.

 

Take care, Heavydluxe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

1) I know how to download hands via the webpage... But is there a way to get one of the 'movie' files for past team matches (thinking of the 'Cayne vs Matches' here) so you don't have 50 files to work through...?

 

2) Is there a way to open a movie file so you only see one hand, recreating kibitzing one person live?

 

3) Does anyone know of some hands that are 'annotated' a la what chess players do with chess games? I'd be interested to see a handful of deals marked up with the "what I was thinking of" kinda comments of a good player.

 

another recommendation: try to find a mentor and a partner.

<snip>

#1 Bridgebrowser, will do the job.

#2 you could try to replay the hand using

the GIB's, upload the hand, play

against 3 GIBs, of course you wont

always each the same contract

#3 There are several books out there,

- comments on workchampion ships

- "Play the bermuda bowl with me"

- a book by Sabine Auken (?!)

- ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

I will recommend reading books over everything. Read everything you can get your hands on. Practice with quiz books that give declarer + defensive problems. BridgeMaster 2000 software is also very good.

 

Getting advice from other players is somewhat dangerous, unless you know they are top level expert that is competing for top spots at NABC+ level. There are lots of decent players that have been playing for decades, have scads of attendance points, yet still have holes in their knowledge, and/or have picked up misconceptions about certain things and repeat them to others.

 

With books, from the better authors (my favs: Root, Kantar, Reese, Kelsey, Lawrence, Miles, Mollo), you get lots of good info systemically presented, with the logic behind things carefully explained. Instead of random tidbits of knowledge that may or may not be correct. A decent player should be able to make logical arguments for his/her assertions, rather than just saying "this is right" without being able to explain why. Especially in bidding, they should be able to know other options besides their own preferences and be able to explain the pros/cons of other ways to bid certain hands. Eventually you should be able to figure out who the better players in your club are, who can explain things clearly, so you can bounce questions off them for answers you can't find in the books, get them to analyze how hands should be bid/played.

[Apollo81]

My advice is to play as many hands as you can with a regular partner against people that are about as good as you and eventually you will learn what works and what doesn't.

[jtfanclub]

I've given up on books on bidding. They seem to contradict each other, and I have trouble keeping them straight. Maybe if I just read one author 14 times it would sink in.

 

So I mostly come over here, where people are generally kind enough to set me straight when I bring up one of my many stupid misconceptions, and/or explain when I ask why some bid would be crazy. I have, thank God, not annoyed them enough for them to kick me out.

[mikeh]

My advice is to play as many hands as you can with a regular partner against people that are about as good as you and eventually you will learn what works and what doesn't.

I could not disagree more strongly.

 

If you want to see why, go kibitz a few hands on BBO and then look at how the hands were bid and played at a number of tables.

 

For example, a routine looking contract, say 4♠: it should make. You kib an expert table and there is a normal lead, normal play, including defensive signals, etc. +620. You may see 8 or 9 620's but my bet would be that at at least half of them, the declarer made a play that should have cost the contract, and the defence gave the trick back.. in fact, it is not unusual to see each side make two offsetting basic errors and end up with the par result. Those players usually don't know that they screwed up.. after all, they got the same result as the all expert table, and if they were capable of recognizing the basic errors, they probably wouldn't have made them

 

If you want to learn, play with and against players who are better than you.

 

It took me a long time to become considered an expert. While it may be that I am a slow learner, I actually prefer to believe that it was because, from university, I went to a smaller city, almost 500 miles from any large city. While there was an active bridge club, the level of play was not very high. A friend of mine and I soon became the best players in town, at least based on local tournament results. I got to thinking I was pretty good :) Then I moved to a bigger city, and a city that has a disproportionate number of the better players in the country, for its size, and I got a rude awakening... plus a real education when I got a chance to play with and against these players. I had leveled off in my improvement because the skill I possessed allowed me to beat up on the other players in the small town...

 

I also suspect that I have levelled off again... partly, no doubt, due to age but also due to the fact that I don't travel to tournaments. One reason Justin has come so far so quickly (and Grue, Woolridge etc) is that he plays with and against the very best... players I am sure he'd agree are currently better than him.

 

So, if you want to remain the same, play against your peers. If you want to improve, play 'up'.

[bestguru]

Thanks everyone for your replies; It is encouraging.

 

Phil, you hit the nail on the head. The more I played the worse I was getting.

 

This mostly looks like great advice.

 

So the new plan is:

Kibitz like crazy and play the hands I kibitzed a few days later via GIB.

Try to find a regular partner

Discuss hands and systems with said partner

Read more

And if there is any time left over, play one or two hands.

[bestguru]

HeavyDluxe,

 

Come on in, its not a threadjack at all. Maybe we can work through this together? If you are interested in partnering, PM me and we can see what we can work out schedulewise.

[Stephen Tu]

) Does anyone know of some hands that are 'annotated' a la what chess players do with chess games? I'd be interested to see a handful of deals marked up with the "what I was thinking of" kinda comments of a good player.

 

Reese wrote several books with an "over the shoulder" type of style, where you play along with the author as he explains the things he is thinking about as the play goes on. "Play these hands with me" and "Play Bridge with Reese". These are also available as a CD using bridgebase interface. More expensive but some people prefer the interactivity.

 

Larry Cohen also has his software product with a similar approach.

[cherdano]

I would think playing a lot is a necessary part of becoming stronger. Of course it is best when you can play against better players, but I believe you can also improve a lot while playing against similarly strong players IF you are really willing to watch and look for your mistakes. If you had a difficult 3N to play, don't just be satisfied if you made it, you should still look whether you only made because of a defensive mistake, or whether you could have catered for more distribution with a better line, etc.

But as Phil says, if you play without at least mentally keeping track of what went wrong and why, it will hardly help.

 

And also, only playing isn't very efficient, reading declarer/defense books (esp. of problem-type) can do a lot.

[vuroth]

One problem that I have with kibitzing top players is figuring out which ones play a system I'm trying to learn. (In my case, SAYC.)

 

As for playing up - I'm guessing that's really, really, really tough to do. I can only agree, though, that it sounds like the way to go.

 

V

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

And if there is any time left over, play one or two hands.

Dont forget that, it is a game / hobby,

i.e. dont forget the fun / enjoyment part.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jillybean]

Good players understandably like playing with other good players so it is not always easy to ‘play up’

I have found one easy way to play against better opps is to play in tournaments where they have no choice but to play against you for 2 boards. :( Admittedly, some self-rated experts are terrible but you do get exposure to better players and different methods this way.

[helene_t]

I've given up on books on bidding. They seem to contradict each other, and I have trouble keeping them straight. Maybe if I just read one author 14 times it would sink in.

 

So I mostly come over here, where people are generally kind enough to set me straight when I bring up one of my many stupid misconceptions, and/or explain when I ask why some bid would be crazy. I have, thank God, not annoyed them enough for them to kick me out.

That's wonderful (no sarcasm) if you play at a club with some really knowledgeable players.

 

Often the problem is that if one is not a bidding theory expert oneself it is very hard to distinguish the real expert advice from the fake expert advice. And even players who know about bidding theory may be prone to biasing the advice they give directly after a board:

- Resulting: the result was bad so our bidding must have been bad

- Pride: something went wrong and I can't accept it was my fault so it must be partner's.

- Sympathy/empathy: This player is an asshole so it is probably his fault.

 

So yes, reading the same book 14 times (well maybe slightly few), or reading 14 books by the same author, will help. If you make a selection of 14 books by Bergen (or Lawrence if you prefer) you should have reasonable coverage.

[P_Marlowe]

I've given up on books on bidding.  They seem to contradict each other, and I have trouble keeping them straight.   Maybe if I just read one author 14 times it would sink in.

<snip>

Hi,

 

I found this quote in Helens answer, and I want to

make one comment:

 

It is great, if the books contracdict each other,

because you will need to think and understand.

 

A good book, explains the logic behind something.

 

Andrew Kambites, an english author, I can recommend,

wrote something along the lines: "It is not important on which

side of the fence you are going to end up, but even your local

Grandmaster disagrees with my recommendation, most of the

time the lines of thinking will be similar, just he will weight certain

arguments different than I do."

 

Quite often there is no right answer, and it also depends

on your level, what is good for world class players, does

not need to be good for average players, e.g. due to

frequency issues.

If you play 1000 boards or more each month and something

crops up in 5 boards, it will be helpful, but if you play

only 100 boards per month, it is just waste of mental

energy.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[HeavyDluxe]

Come on in, its not a threadjack at all. Maybe we can work through this together? If you are interested in partnering, PM me...

Thanks, Best (sending a PM after this post)... And thanks everyone for such a good thread.

 

If you want to learn, play with and against players who are better than you.

I think, by and large, MikeH is right. My background is in music, and I can tell you learn to play music better by being with better and better musicians. I think the same holds true for anything.

 

The trick is that I'm one of the folks who lives in the middle of nowhere (VT), so access to local play is difficult. And most *truly* solid players on BBO don't seem to want to let someone labelled Beg/Int sit at their table. There are exceptions, of course, but it's hard to find a good game.

 

vuroth said:

One problem that I have with kibitzing top players is figuring out which ones play a system I'm trying to learn. (In my case, SAYC.)

I made a post asking the same thing... Here's the thread (and makes clear my interest in the jec matches):

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=19783

 

1) I know how to download hands via the webpage... But is there a way to get one of the 'movie' files for past team matches (thinking of the 'Cayne vs Matches' here) so you don't have 50 files to work through...?

 

#1 Bridgebrowser, will do the job.

Heh... Is it uncouth to say I was hoping for a 'free' way? ;-)

 

Thanks PMarlowe... I'm just surprised on the 'hands' homepage, there isn't a "Download as single file" option, instead of dl'in each hand individually.

 

That said, I've used Chessbase in the past, and Bridgebrowser seems to be the analogous thing. I'm not quite sure that's the best investment for me at this point. So, I'd welcome any other ideas people have re: getting single files of the CAYNE matches, etc.

 

2) Is there a way to open a movie file so you only see one hand, recreating kibitzing one person live?

 

#2 you could try to replay the hand using the GIB's, upload the hand, play

against 3 GIBs, of course you wont always each the same contract

I'd be, at this stage, anyway, less interested in replaying the hands. I'd rather just see "so and so's" cards and watch the play/bidding from their seat.

 

I wonder if there's a way to import the BBO files (.lin, I think) into BridgeBaron, which I bought a year ago? Hmmmm. Off to look for a converter.

 

3) Does anyone know of some hands that are 'annotated' a la what chess players do with chess games? I'd be interested to see a handful of deals marked up with the "what I was thinking of" kinda comments of a good player.

 

Thanks for the many good tips here... I'll try to check out the Reese books that were suggested.

 

You know, this would be an interesting service for the BIL, I think. Have a handful of graduates/mentors play some hands using relatively standard methods, and then have each player annotate their 'turn'. Throw it in a PDF and post it.

 

If anyone else agrees that it'd be helpful, I'd be willing to offer my time to assemble the documents and convert them.

 

Thanks again for this thread, everyone.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

#2 you could try to replay the hand using the GIB's, upload the hand, play

against 3 GIBs, of course you wont always each the same contract

I'd be, at this stage, anyway, less interested in replaying the hands. I'd rather just see "so and so's" cards and watch the play/bidding from their seat.

 

I wonder if there's a way to import the BBO files (.lin, I think) into BridgeBaron, which I bought a year ago? Hmmmm. Off to look for a converter.

<snip>

I believe Bridge Baron supports PBN,

a converter from lin to PBN exists,

e.g. you can try the follwoing link

http://www.rpbridge.net/t/bfc.txt

 

Besides it maybe possible to use the BBO

software direct, the BBO Movie Display Program

is able to open PBN Files, maybe it can also

save PBN, just try.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe