pbleighton Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 This is a textbook 2D overcall, I don't have anything to add. Agree. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Color me yellow. I'm already yellow so color me something else? I won't double, this is so making. The question is do we have 8 tricks in ♦? I will just pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 3NT from partner would be a "garbage" raise in my methods, looking for a save, while 4♦ is constructive. I still believe they'll make 4♠, but it's not certain. If I'm playing opponents who I think might take the push to the 5-level, I'd bid 5♦. Else I'd pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Very tough choice here, but I have only a normal 4♦ overcall. Although I have a 6th ♦, I have lots of likely losers including a likely worthless Q of ♠. I'd carry on to 5♦ at MPs where -500 beats -600 nicely and where the opps are more likely to push on to 5♠ than at IMPs. However, at IMPs vs sane opps (who won't charge willy-nilly into 5♠ on momentum) I somewhat prefer to pass as my hand is too flat. Perhaps PD has the right cards and a K is onside or something and 4♠ is -1,and that is a huge gain over 5♦x where I expect we're off 3 tricks most of the time. .. neilkaz ,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sathyab Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Pard never bids 5♦ here. If he had a 5♦ call he would have taken it last time. If pard thinks that we are ever 'buying' it for 4♦ he should not be playing with me. I would characterize 4♦ as 'consultative'. If I have poor defense I think I am expected to bid 5♦ at these colors. My overcall looks normal, but I have less than typical defense, on average. There are many overcalls where I am pleased to defend their game. Do I have the perfect hand for 5♦? Not even close. Is 800 a possibility? Sure. But I'll take insurance for 4 IMPs to see if they take the push to 5, which may be a 11-13 IMP gain. Even then, I may gain 3 (-500) or gain 7 (-300) in 5♦.In total agrrement with your arguments here Phil. Partner has already bid his more or less, if anyone should be taking action it's you now. This is not a sequence where partner gets to make the final guess/error, it's got to be you. It's not as though he made a waiting bid of 4d to either buy the hand at 4d (dream on) or to just give you a chance to double their 4s, failing which he was prepared to bid 5d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 OK, this debate seems to be about what a 4D bid shows.To my mind 4D says: - I don't have diamonds and hearts (I'd bid 3H)- I don't have diamonds and clubs (I'd bid 4C)- I don't have diamonds and high cards (I'd bid 3S)- I don't want to bid 5D unilaterally, I want to hear your opinion. So, yes, consultative in that sense. But he is certainly allowed to bid 5D in the pass-out seat. One reason to bid 4D the first time is a concern that partner might be about to double 4S - perhaps the 4D bidder has very short spades as well as external high cards - when partner doesn't double 4S, if he knows a save will be cheap, he will save. Pretty rare, I agree, and I agree that we are probably making the final decision (and we are certainly making the final decision if we think for a long time first). Anyway, back to the problem. What does a 4D bid look like? I expect 4-card diamond support, scattered high cards and not a great deal of distribution. Or rather, if he has a great deal of distribution he's going to bid 5D anyway. I think he's got a doubleton spade a lot of the time (or even 3 spades). A singleton and 4-card support is quite likely to save whatever, unless he thinks we're beating 4S. That means we are likely -500. OK, I don't think it's a big deal either way. Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. (doubling 4S here is about a good a call as opening 4H in 2nd seat on - QJ109xxx Qx AKxx). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 (doubling 4S here is about a good a call as opening 4H in 2nd seat on - QJ109xxx Qx AKxx). This is ridiculous. Doubling 4♠ here has almost no chance to succeed. Opening 4♥ on that hand may not be a great call but it sure could generate a positive swing if you catch a nice combination of hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 OK, this debate seems to be about what a 4D bid shows.To my mind 4D says: - I don't have diamonds and hearts (I'd bid 3H)- I don't have diamonds and clubs (I'd bid 4C)- I don't have diamonds and high cards (I'd bid 3S)- I don't want to bid 5D unilaterally, I want to hear your opinion. So, yes, consultative in that sense. Right, I think it comes down to whether you have extra offense for your bid or not and a lot of that depends on your overcalling style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Frances: I don't think the lack of a double (i.e., pass) of 4♠ translates into, "pard, I'm not sure what to do here, go ahead and make the last guess". Pass can mean many things, including: 1. I'm not sure we can beat 4♠2. I think 5♦ is too expensive and even: 3. I don't want you pulling my darn double, since you have zero defense. When the opps have shown the balance of power (many would say they are in a forcing pass at these colors with a limit + raise) I can't ever remembering doubling them, unless of course I thought they could make slam. After 4♦, I'll stick to, "its my decision to sac, pass or double". I think partner has completed relinquished capitaincy. I like Harald's argument about the use of 3N. I think many strong pairs play it, and it lends clarification to 4♦. At these colors, I think its less useful, since rarely is pard bidding 4♦ on power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhall Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Nobody has mentioned advancer's responsibilities here. He did not have to bid 4♦, and he must be bright enough to realize that 4♠ is the most likely next bid by opener. So he should already have a very good idea about what to do if the auction continues 4♠-P-P back to him. With no special message to give him, I say *don't* get in his way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 It seems bidding 5D is the same as doubling down on our bet. Partner with 4D and an outside Ace at this vul choose to bid 4D not 5D. She bet that:1) She might buy it for 4D2) Partner has extra shape or extra something to bid 5D3) The opp would not bid 4H4) If the opp bid 4H and partner passes we might beat it. It seems both partner and I gave it our shot, the opp are in 4H, lets defend and move on to the next hand. Why reload and shoot again with nothing extra or special? BTW I think FTL says we may only go for 500 here vs 62013-4-1=8 tricks.13=total given tricks-4=assumed two combined shortest suits.-1=assume 16 working hcp. Look forward to seeing the actual hands and how close my FTL guess is. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Nobody has mentioned advancer's responsibilities here. He did not have to bid 4♦, and he must be bright enough to realize that 4♠ is the most likely next bid by opener. So he should already have a very good idea about what to do if the auction continues 4♠-P-P back to him. With no special message to give him, I say *don't* get in his way! Yeah, see, that is the crux of the argument that I'm making for doubling. I do not agree that 4♦ shows four pieces. As can easily be assessed, 4♦ is quite a bid. It virtually assures us that the opponents will bid 4♥ without us knowing whether they bid 4♥ because they want us to sacrifice, because they think they might possibly make it, because they were going to bid it anyway, or because they don't quite have the space for a slam try and are being practical. Advancer does, therefore, have responsibilities. He has several ways to describe diamond support, including a double of 3♦, 4♦, 5♦, and 3NT. New suit calls probably also agree diamonds. You also have 3♥ available. So, what is 4♦? Just saying "consultative" without more begs the question of how we are supposed to provide that consultation. The way I play, and the way others seem to play, 4♦ establishes ownership of the four-level, in a sense. 4♦ shows something between defense of 4♠ and playing 5♦, with an expectation that 4♦ would make or be set one. If so, it seems to establish a forcing pass situation. If 4♦ creates a forcing pass situation, then passing out 4♠ undoubled is not possible. Requiring me to decide, rather than allowing me to describe three types (clear double, clear bid, undecided pass) by whatever "definitions" those types have, seems overly limiting on 4♦ and rather impractical if 4♦ cannot be precisely defined (I have not yet seen any practical definition of 4♦ sufficient to allow me unfettered discretion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. I bid an insta 5D hoping to get a 5S bid out of them, but I really regretted it later and wish I would have thought for a while and passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. I bid an insta 5D hoping to get a 5S bid out of them, but I really regretted it later and wish I would have thought for a while and passed. OK, so what happened? Who had what? Spill it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. I bid an insta 5D hoping to get a 5S bid out of them, but I really regretted it later and wish I would have thought for a while and passed.If you are going to bid 5♦, it makes sense to do it quickly.. the idea, of course, is to sound like a player looking at a stiff ♠. My gut reaction was to pass the hand, but I confess that the more comments I read, the more I was leaning towards the quick 5♦ :P I'm glad I was so late to the thread that I don't have to post that choice..... The truth is that most good opps don't take pushes to the 5-level except on unusual hands: they take the money against your save. Not only that, but good opps at this heat will have bid 4♠ with no real assurance that they are making, because not only do they have the good imp odds for bidding a thin game, but they also have the very significant odds that the opps will bid a phantom on momentum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. I bid an insta 5D hoping to get a 5S bid out of them, but I really regretted it later and wish I would have thought for a while and passed. OK, so what happened? Who had what? Spill it! Partner bid 4D on xxx xxx xxxx xxx so the results aren't really relevant :P In retrospect I like a pass though, I didn't think it through enough because I felt like I needed to bid 5D very confidently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Maybe I'm being persuaded to bid 5d confidently because I don't see 4S going off so it can't be too far wrong. I bid an insta 5D hoping to get a 5S bid out of them, but I really regretted it later and wish I would have thought for a while and passed. OK, so what happened? Who had what? Spill it! Partner bid 4D on xxx xxx xxxx xxx so the results aren't really relevant :rolleyes: In retrospect I like a pass though, I didn't think it through enough because I felt like I needed to bid 5D very confidently. So, the question has become "what do you bid with a partner who is a lunatic?" Similar to the other post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Lunatics to the right of me, lunatics across from me, here I am - stuck in the middle of the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Lunatics to the right of me, lunatics across from me, here I am - stuck in the middle of the forums. God I hope this is not some Steely Dan Crap. Phil needs a Rock and Roll advisor. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I take it 4♦ is at least mildly invitational to a save. 5♦ thus. Edit.. again: wtf who's pard??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Partner bid 4D on xxx xxx xxxx xxx so the results aren't really relevant :D In retrospect I like a pass though, I didn't think it through enough because I felt like I needed to bid 5D very confidently. As Ken pointed out, 4 Diamond was indeed a Transfer to their game. Pd was more afraid that they may have slam then he was about defending their game. He does not know much about your defence, but he can count his defensive tricks quite quick, so slam in their hand was really possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Lunatics to the right of me, lunatics across from me, here I am - stuck in the middle of the forums. God I hope this is not some Steely Dan Crap. Phil needs a Rock and Roll advisor. :D Actually, that is Stealers Wheel. Not Steely Dan.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 white/red♠ Q x ♥ K x x ♦ A K J T x x ♣ x x 1S on your right, you bid 2D, LHO bids 3D(limit raise 3+ trumps), partner bids 4D, RHO bids 4S. Do you or don't you? Partner bid 4D on ♠ x x x ♥ x x x ♦ x x x x ♣ x x x so the results aren't really relevant :( In retrospect I like a pass though, I didn't think it through enough because I felt like I needed to bid 5D very confidently. You might not find the pass at the table but the arguments here show it to be the logical choice . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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