game forcing minor raise

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxhajxdkqtxxckjt]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ (P) ?[/hv]

 

Hi,

 

Playing SAYC how would the EXPERTS bid this? (no inverted minors, crisscross or other gadgets)

[Guest Jlall]

Stuck into 2C if you have no forcing raise.

[Apollo81]

Stuck into 2C if you have no forcing raise.

right

[Fluffy]

I like 1♥, but if the partner is pickup 2♣ is much safer.

[pclayton]

"Expert" and "SAYC" seem mutually exclusive to me, for many reasons like this.

 

Is there a top pair that plays sayc?

 

You can fudge a 2♣ response, but a 3262 or a 2272 gets REALLY ugly.

[cherdano]

In SAYC, you can also bid 2N, forcing.

[Guest Jlall]

In SAYC, you can also bid 2N, forcing.

meh, xx spades :)

[skjaeran]

This question just shows why experts don't play SAYC. Not having a forcing (or invitational) minor suit raise available is IMO not possible for serious players.

 

Having said that, I'd bid 2♣ here - being forced to take over with these (non-)agreements.

[jillybean]

Ok, so the next obvious question is what DO serious players play? Do you just keep adding on conventions?

[mikeh]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxhajxdkqtxxckjt]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ (P) ?[/hv]

 

Hi,

 

Playing SAYC how would  the EXPERTS bid this? (no inverted minors, crisscross or other gadgets)

Hi Jb

 

No experts would bid in SAYC unless paid to do so or playing with a non-expert. As others have said, no expert would play a method that lacked a forcing raise..

 

If you play that partner will NOT raise 1♥ without 4, then I'd risk 1♥... I don't know what SAYC dictates, but 'standard' permits raises with 3 and a weak hand with some shape. So I go with the popular 2♣ and try to get partner to learn a better method soon... you can easily graft criss-cross onto a standard base, if inverted is too much (I refuse to play inverted without a LOT of discussion)

[jillybean]

you can easily graft criss-cross onto a standard base, if inverted is too much (I refuse to play inverted without a LOT of discussion)

Hi,

 

My bridge teacher recommended crisscross months ago but I didn’t have any chance to use it. I like it, its easy and not too hard to remember. I forget most of these fandangle conventions. The only drawback is that you never see it listed, pickup partners use (misuse) inverted minors if anything, so its not going to help in those games. Richard uses Inv Minors however he is very accommodating so maybe I can try it there.

 

jb

 

http://bridgehands.com/C/Criss_Cross_Raise.htm

 

is 1♦:2♣ natural?

[Stephen Tu]

Under the given conditions, I don't understand why anyone prefers 1♥ to 2♣. If you bid clubs first, if partner starts going nuts raising you it's easy to get back to diamonds on the same level. What is the gain in bidding 1♥?

[Fluffy]

Under the given conditions, I don't understand why anyone prefers 1♥ to 2♣. If you bid clubs first, if partner starts going nuts raising you it's easy to get back to diamonds on the same level. What is the gain in bidding 1♥?

you gain space to investigate diamond slam whenever partner doesn't have 4.

[whereagles]

I think I would bid 2♣ in sayc.

[Stephen Tu]

you gain space to investigate diamond slam whenever partner doesn't have 4

 

Really? I think this is an illusion. Compare where the level of the auction & what information has been exchanged after responder's 2nd bid, and possibly 3rd bid. Don't just look after the 1st bid. Since 1h doesn't show as much strength as 2c, to force the auction will often require some sort of jump later, or some sort of NMF/XYZ/4SF bid followed by a diamond raise, and in any case you are unlikely to show the nature of the hand below 3d in either case.

 

E.g. 1d-1h-1s-2c!-2h-3d, or 1d-1h-1nt-2d!-2h-3d, are you really much better off than after 1d-2c-?-3d?

 

I don't think there is a gain, and considerable danger in making the auction murky especially if partner has 3+ hearts. Having to bid 2c is bad enough as it is given no forcing minor raise; bidding hearts is worse given most bidding system's emphasis on getting to majors instead of minors.

[jdonn]

you gain space to investigate diamond slam whenever partner doesn't have 4

 

Really? I think this is an illusion. Compare where the level of the auction & what information has been exchanged after responder's 2nd bid, and possibly 3rd bid. Don't just look after the 1st bid. Since 1h doesn't show as much strength as 2c, to force the auction will often require some sort of jump later, or some sort of NMF/XYZ/4SF bid followed by a diamond raise, and in any case you are unlikely to show the nature of the hand below 3d in either case.

 

E.g. 1d-1h-1s-2c!-2h-3d, or 1d-1h-1nt-2d!-2h-3d, are you really much better off than after 1d-2c-?-3d?

 

I don't think there is a gain, and considerable danger in making the auction murky especially if partner has 3+ hearts. Having to bid 2c is bad enough as it is given no forcing minor raise; bidding hearts is worse given most bidding system's emphasis on getting to majors instead of minors.

I was going to make a post just like this before I saw this one. And if partner raises hearts, good luck to you.

[foo]

I'm with stephen and josh on this one.

[Fluffy]

yes there is a big difference between

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-2♣

2[NT]-3♦

 

and

 

1♦-2♣

2♦/NT-3♦

 

 

On first one you know partner is 4243 or 4153, on the second he could have 5 or 6 different shapes

 

On your examples partner must be 4342 or 4351, when on the other he could again ahve 5 or 6 different shapes.

 

This is when he has 12-14, give him 18-19 balanced and you have losed a full level.

 

Also it is more accurate that partner thinks we have 4♥ than when he thinks we have 5 clubs.

[Codo]

I think 2 NT in basic sayc does not promise a stopper in any suit, but ist natural, game forcing and balanced. In that case, I would bid it, a perfect describtion of the hand.

 

In the real world, I would bid 3 NT, because I doubt that the majority of SAYC Players play 2 NT as GF.

 

For all the guys who invite a two club bid:

How do you proceed after:

 

1 ♦ 2 ♣ 2 ♦? Is 2 Heart now stopper asking or showing?

or 2 NT? Does this really promise stopper in both suits?

3 ♣? Which game will you reach?

 

Yes, you survived this round but you will get problems in the next one.

 

 

Of course there are many hands, where you need a forcing minor suit raise, but I would have no problem with this hand: Too balanced and too weak for a slam try on my own and in that case 3 NT is the place to play.

[Gerben42]

To respond to Jillybean's question "what DO experts play?", the answer is that they will add SOME conventions. Inverted minors happen to be standard practice (and this hand is a big commercial for inv. minors!), for example, as is some kind of New Minor Forcing or Checkback Stayman.

 

Some add more conventions than others.

[P_Marlowe]

2C is probably the simples lie, you can always

convert to diamonds.

 

The alternative would be to hide the diamonds fit

entierly and bid 3NT, showing 13-15 bal (unless this

gets shown by a 2NT bid already, I seem to recall

this meaning as well, but 10-12 bal. is also quite often

taught).

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

 

For all the guys who invite a two club bid:

How do you proceed after:

 

1 ♦ 2 ♣ 2 ♦? Is 2 Heart now stopper asking or showing?

or 2 NT? Does this really promise stopper in both suits?

3 ♣? Which game will you reach?

 

Yes, you survived this round but you will get problems in the next one.

 

 

Of course there are many hands, where you need a forcing minor suit raise, but I would have no problem with this hand: Too balanced and too weak for a slam try on my own and in that case 3 NT is the place to play.

I believe you are talking about

 

1D - 2C

2D

 

the next bid is 3D, establishing the

fit and creating a game force.

 

Of ourse partner will play me for

3 diamonds and 4/5 clubs and not

the other way round, but ...

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Under the given conditions, I don't understand why anyone prefers 1♥ to 2♣.  If you bid clubs first, if partner starts going nuts raising you it's easy to get back to diamonds on the same level.  What is the gain in bidding 1♥?

you gain space to investigate diamond slam whenever partner doesn't have 4.

but the gain of space gets countered by the gain of

safety. I can always convert to diamonds without

raising the level, but this is not true for hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

Ok, so the next obvious question is what DO serious players play? Do you just keep adding on conventions?

Serious partnerships play more conventions than those included in SAYC.

 

Most have a forcing raise of a minor suit. Not all. Dany Kleinman doesn't like inverted minors.

 

Two serious players, forming a non-regular partnership, might agree not to play any forcing raise of the minors. Playing limit jump raises is considered inferior by most, but it's simple, and if you don't have months to discuss system you'll have to concentrate of the essentials. Forcing minor suit raises don't come up that frequently, and the follow-ups are less standardized than those in SAYC.

[skjaeran]

To respond to Jillybean's question "what DO experts play?", the answer is that they will add SOME conventions. Inverted minors happen to be standard practice (and this hand is a big commercial for inv. minors!), for example, as is some kind of New Minor Forcing or Checkback Stayman.

 

Some add more conventions than others.

Agree with Gerben.

 

I play 1m-2m as GF and 1m-3m as preemptive. Hands with support between these ranges, that can't be shown as balanced NF, thus needs to be bid in a different way. I use 1♣-2♠ and 1♦-3♣ to show an unbalanced or semibalanced raise with (8)9-11(12) hcp. Suit lenght required of course depends upon minimum lenght to open 1m.