17 points, 6 hearts

[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: All Scoring: IMP ♠ AJ4 ♥ KQT953 ♦ AK5 ♣ 9

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♣    Pass  ?  

 

 

My bidding is deteriorating or the hands are getting harder ( no need to comment on that)

 

Playing sayc std, how do you bid this?

[pbleighton]

What does your partner expect for a sjs? I haven't played them in a while, but it looks like a reasonable upgrade to me. You club stiff is the only reason I might not.

 

Peter

[whereagles]

I really, really think 1♥ is wtp :D

[neilkaz]

17 HCP and good controls and a very fine 6 card ♥ suit make this a slam invitational hand to me. I will tell opener about this NOW and make a strong jump shift to 2♥ in spite of being stiff in opener's suit.

 

If opener cannot raise ♥ at some point as the auction continues, and takes no action to prob for slam or tries to s/off in 3NT we will stay below even a slam try.

 

I find that in SAYC (where with some PD's even trying 4sf gets muddy) it is best to flash the slam inv. signal ASAP with these hands, and then hands starting with 1♥ and forcing to game are either less one suited or weaker.

 

..neilkaz ..

[Mr. Dodgy]

2♥

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1H, but 2H is reasonable, although the heart

suit is not quite adequate to send the message

that the suit can be played for one looser

oppossite a single / void.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pbleighton]

I really, really think 1♥ is wtp

 

Even playing strong jump shifts?

 

Peter

[hotShot]

I really, really think 1♥ is wtp

 

Even playing strong jump shifts?

 

Peter

Maybe it's because I don't like strong jump shifts, but I would bid 1♥ even playing strong jump shifts.

East did not bid and i think it's very unlikely that West will enter the auction. So I don't need to preempt opps, but I need bidding space, because I'm single in partners ♣ suit. We might have a complete misfit or we might have a grand if partner does not have wasted ♣ values beside the Ace.

We need bidding space to find our best contract and level, I can force to game or more any time later.

[whereagles]

I really, really think 1♥ is wtp

 

Even playing strong jump shifts?

 

Peter

SJS are to be used with very, very specific hand types, which you should have pre-agreed with pard. Otherwise you're better off forgetting the words "strong jump shift" :D

 

I used to play SJS as

 

1. fit + side suit, slammish (support pard next round)

2. semi solid suit, 6322 shape, 13-16 hcp (bids NT next round)

3. solid 7 card suit, asks for controls (rebids suit next round)

 

This hand is close to 2, but I would do only do it with these agreements.

[pbleighton]

SJS are to be used with very, very specific hand types, which you should have pre-agreed with pard. Otherwise you're better off forgetting the words "strong jump shift"

 

Fine for you and your partner, but *playing sayc* is dollars-to-doughnuts with a piackup pd, who will interpret it as any strong hand.

 

Peter

[skjaeran]

Playing SJS, this really is an obvious 2♥ call. You're worth a slam try, partner can support with Ax/Jx (or even singleton J), you're onesuited. All normal requirements for a SJS are covered.

 

If you can't jump to 2♥ with this you'd better scrap the SJS altogether, since you'll have a hand for it at most once every leap year or thereabouts. Then it's not worth being in your system notes - the bid can be used to better effect with some other meaning (WJS, reverse Flannery, etc).

[skjaeran]

For the record, in my methods I'd bid 2♦ with this hand, transfer, showing either a WJS or a SJS (in ♥'s).

[pclayton]

1H. When I play SJS, I need support for pard or a better suit than KQT9xx.

[jdonn]

If you can't jump to 2♥ with this you'd better scrap the SJS altogether, since you'll have a hand for it at most once every leap year or thereabouts. Then it's not worth being in your system notes - the bid can be used to better effect with some other meaning (WJS, reverse Flannery, etc).

That is not true if you include other hand types. The 1 suited hand requiring a better suit than this isn't very common, but coupled with balanced hands and hands that have support for partner it comes up plenty.

[neilkaz]

For the record, in my methods I'd bid 2♦ with this hand, transfer, showing either a WJS or a SJS (in ♥'s).

I have to say that I think your method makes lots of sense ! .. neilkaz ..

[Guest Jlall]

I think this hand is too flexible and the suit is too weak for 2H.

[foo]

2x post.

[foo]

North,All,IMP,

 

♠AJ4♥KQT953♦AK5♣9

 

West  North East  South

 

----1♣-pa-??

 

 

My bidding is deteriorating or the hands are getting harder  ( no need to comment on that)

 

Playing sayc std, how do you bid this?

Assuming your pd opens 7- loser hands with 2+ Quick Tricks the vast majority of the time, you know that that there is a possible slam in the air.

 

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

 

Is this 5 loser hand good enough that you will learn what you need to know if Opener starts cubidding immediately? Or do you need to exchange more shape information to figure out strain first?

 

Make the SJS if you have a good idea what the final strain will be. Make a simple forcing response if you don't.

 

These ♥'s are not self-sufficient enough that I know We belong in ♥'s.

The stiff ♣ is also worrisome.

 

What if we don't SJS?

1C-1H;1S-2D! 4SF, GF

1C-1H;1N-2D! NMF, to be followed by setting a GF

1C-1H;2C-2S! Responder's Reverse, GF

 

In 2/3 of the likely auctions, the auction stays below the level of the SJS and We exchange information more useful to Us in this situation than the SJS would obtain.

 

Respond 1♥.

[neilkaz]

1H. When I play SJS, I need support for pard or a better suit than KQT9xx.

Playing SAYC I would still make the SJS if my 9 of ♥ were a low spot, but not if my suit were lacking the 10..ie KQ9xxx.

 

Anyhow..lets assume basic SAYC is the system..ie lacking NMF or checkback and lacking even 4sf.

 

I'll ask a few questions about SAYC and then continue on (noting that I am more familiar with 2/1 GF) We'll assume the most common rebid by opener after 1♥ 1NT and that opener very rarely would raise 1♥to 2♥ with only 3 pieces.

 

So now what does responder rebid after 1NT (noting slam is still possible vs the right max)? 3♥ ? is that forcing in SAYC ? If not you have to reverse 2♠ or jump shift 3♦ on 3 card suits. Sometimes those actions are hard for B/I to do and also may confuse PD.

 

In SAYC how does responder rebid after 1♠? Is the jump to 3♥ forcing ? etc etc ?

 

Anyhow, by jump shifting now in SAYC sans gadgets, responder flashes the slam invite message to PD, creates a 100% game force, and also creates a forcing pass situation should the opps get frisky and enter the bidding. Most likely 2♥ is a very good suit and this hand suffices since KQT9xx often picks up the J in play if PD doesn't have it. Or perhaps the jump shifter has a shorter but good ♥ suit and splendid ♣ support (although some B/I wouldn't play it that way)

 

This hand, IMHO is clearly easier for B/I to bid in basic SAYC by jump shifting now! If opener is minimum, he/she will make minimal rebids and avoid any strong sort of slam try. Responder also could have a better hand than this and then he will insist upon slam or at least make a strong try for it.

 

Just my opinions..you don't all have to agree with them, but lets all note this is the B/I forum ! .. neilkaz ..

[foo]

Even playing SA or SAYC w/o 4SF or NMF, the following auctions are forcing.

1C-1H;1S-2D

Responder has not bid NT nor taken a Preference.

 

1C-1H;1N-2D

Responder has not passed 1N nor rebid their suit cheaply nor taken a Preference.

 

1C-1H;2C-2S!

Responder's Reverse is always GF

[neilkaz]

Even playing SA or SAYC w/o 4SF or NMF, the following auctions are forcing.

1C-1H;1S-2D

Responder has not bid NT nor taken a Preference.

 

1C-1H;1N-2D

Responder has not passed 1N nor rebid their suit cheaply nor taken a Preference.

 

1C-1H;2C-2S!

Responder's Reverse is always GF

You and I and the good/expert players know this, but I have been dropped after 1♣-1♥-1NT-2♦ opposite SAYCers who claim to be good, and the other auctions require bidding suits you only have 3 cards in, and also other than responder's reverse aren't GF and none highlight the splendid 6 card suit. I have also seen actions where I reverse as responder and was dropped shy of game.

 

I'll bet that if you go into MBC and play a couple hours a day with inter/good listed players who only state that they play basic SAYC, you'll experience some of what I am talking about and sooner than you expect.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[hrothgar]

Assuming your pd opens 7- loser hands with 2+ Quick Tricks the vast majority of the time, you know that that there is a possible slam in the air.

 

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

Bullshit.

 

As usual, you are assuming that you're own idiosyncratic methods are universal.

 

There are a lot of different styles of Strong Jump Shifts, and a lot of valid response structures. I think that Karen Walker says it best when she makes the following statement regarding Strong Jump Shifts at http://www.prairienet.org/bridge/b_jshift.htm

 

An additional problem arises because so few players have discussed the exact meanings of opener's rebids after the jump-shift. In the auction above, could partner's 3H show a minimum like  S-3 H-KJ76 D-K8754 C-KQJ, where even 6NT is a gamble? Or might he have S-53 H-KQJ4 D-KQJ102  C-86, where 7NT is laydown? You're more likely to find out about partner's distribution if you start with a simple 1S response.

Later in the article, she recommends the following

 

Here's a recommended set of agreements for opener's rebids after responder's jump-shift:

 

* A raise of responder's suit promises one of the top three honors and at least doubleton support (Qx or better, although some players advocate raising with even a singleton honor). With Hand #1, raise to 3S -- partner will be more interested in your filler for his suit than in your club length.

 

* A failure to raise responder's suit DENIES one of the top three honors in his suit.

 

* A rebid of your suit shows extra length with good honor strength in the suit. With Hand #2, you can't raise to 3S immediately because it promises a top honor. Instead, rebid 3D to describe your strong suit, then show your spade length with your next bid.

 

* A new suit shows concentrated honor strength, but not necessarily length. With Hand #3, rebid 3C to show the location of your outside strength.

 

* Notrump rebids show balanced minimums with stoppers in both unbid suits. Rebid 2NT with Hand #4. Since partner won't have a 4-card heart suit, there's no point in rebidding 3H.

 

Note that new suit is showing "concentrated honor strength" (significantly different than a cue bid).

 

My own preferred methods are slightly different. I think that its strongly desirable that raises, NT bids, and space consuming bids have fairly specific requirements. However, I think that its necessary to have a "bid of misery" that denies a hand suitable for more space consuming bids.

 

For example, in the auction that you provided I prefer that

 

3♥ promises Hx or better in Hearts

3♦ shows concentrated honor strength in Diamonds

3♣ = Club suit

2N = Stoppers in Spades and Diamonds

2♠ = temporizing. Denies the ability to bid 2NT+

 

(With the hand in question, I probably should have raised Hearts rather than rebid 2NT, however, we didn't have an agreements and I wanted to protect my positional stoppers)

[pbleighton]

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

 

Foo, where do you come up with this crap? Play what you like , but this is completely non-standard.

 

My 6th Edition Encyclopedia Of Bridge (2001) says:

" Rebids by the opner after a jump shift are not standardized, but the opener should usually make the he was planning after a non-jump response, only, of course one level higher."

 

Peter

[neilkaz]

A SJS is a demand that Opener start cuebidding.

 

Foo, where do you come up with this crap? Play what you like , but this is completely non-standard.

 

My 6th Edition Encyclopedia Of Bridge (2001) says:

" Rebids by the opner after a jump shift are not standardized, but the opener should usually make the he was planning after a non-jump response, only, of course one level higher."

 

Peter

Yes..noting I play and like Hrothgar's rebidding system after SJS .. neilkaz ..

[Double !]

I'd respond 2H in a heartbeat.

 

There are just certain hands where you have to get your strength and decent suit off of your chest asap and then relax. This, IMO, is such a hand. Remember, a strong jump-shift is not slam forcing: it is game forcing and slam invitational depending on opener's rebid. If partner rebids 3 Clubs, then you have an easy 3NT.

 

DHL