your plan

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sxhqxdajxxcakjxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

How do you plan to bid this? Or do you open 1nt ;)

[hrothgar]

This is an annoying hand for standard methods

 

I would open 1♣, intending to

 

1. Rebid 2♣ over 1♠

2. Rebid 2♦ over 1♥

[jillybean]

I like option2 , option1 I dislike making a min rebid with this type of hand (and likely overbid it)

[Apollo81]

Open 1♣. rebid 2♣

[P_Marlowe]

Open 1C and rebid 2C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

I agree with hrothgar.

 

After the 1♥ response you should really like your hand enough to reverse. However after 1♠ your singleton in partner's suit should be a warning sign and this would tip the balance to not make a reverse.

 

1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣ could be a minimum, but that doesn't mean partner will always pass.

[foo]

South,None,IMP,

♠x♥Qx♦AJxx♣AKJxxx

 

How do you plan to bid this? Or do you open 1N?  ;)

Open 1N!? With this!? Don't do that to pd or yourself.

 

This is a reasonably normal 15 count.

I Predict 1♣-1M;2♣-etc

 

You are not even close to being strong enough to reverse.

A reverse requires 17+ HCP and a 5- loser hand.

 

...and no, Qx opposite 4 or 5 ♥'s and 6-9 HCP does not an upgrade to your hand make.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I would not even think about opening 1NT. Unless I was playing with a very, very weak client, 1NT has zero appeal(and I would not bid 1NT in that situation either)

 

I would rebid 2Cs over a reply in either major.

 

You might consider a minor reduction in the value of this hand because partner bid your shortest suit(1S) Over a 1H reply, where is the hand going if partner does not bid again over 2Cs? There might be a magic hand with 9HCP that passes game out, however, partner will rebid with 10+ or rebid a long major with 5/6+HCP.

 

The Italians used a saying that it wears out the brake when you keep your foot on the gas.

 

Another saying was that it was easier to 'add something' to your bidding than to substract something that you have already promised. "Having something in reserve."

 

I would reverse into 2Ds 'if' I held Qxx of hearts with a 1345 pattern. The lack of a third heart means that the hand is slightly weaker than a 1345 pattern.

 

A toy that I like to use here is the after a reverse, a rebid of the major asks partner to pass with 3 card support 'without' GF values. Why play at the three level when you already know that you will pass that invite?

 

I use the cheaper of 4th suit forcing or 2NT to ask partner to show his range. They will not rebid above three of his suit without game going values.

 

Regards,

Robert

[ArcLight]

Question on Standard bidding:

What does this aution show:

1m - something,

3m

 

6+ cards and 16-18 total points?

 

(this is from Freds software on the ACBL website)

 

Doesn't this mean 1♣ followed by 3♣ is generally the correct bid?

(or 2♦ reverse over pards 1♥ since the Q may be useful)

 

Why bid only 2♣?

[jdonn]

I like what Richard said, easily worth a reverse if partner responds 1♥.

[mikeh]

1♣... no second choice... even thinking about 1N is a worrying sign... I suggest an early checkup with your nearest bridge doctor....

 

As for the rebid: 3♣.... now, if my biggest 'x' were a 7 or a 6, maybe 2♣, but if I have the 9 in either minor, a clear 3♣.

 

No way am I reversing: I play strong reverses, and, unless I hold a decent 3 card fit for partner's raise, I won't reverse with less than a wonderful 17.

 

I would raise 1♦ to 2♦: one of the (many) advantages of opening 1♦ with 4=4 in the minors is that I can play the raise to 2♦ as promising some extras... not a full reverse, but some extras.

[Finch]

I agree with hrothgar & jdonn

 

p.s. 1C - 1M - 3C has the same minimum strength as 1C - 1M - 2D, it just shows a different hand type. So you can't have a hand that is worth a 3C rebid but not worth a reverse.

 

(As a reverse is forcing and 3C isn't, you can have a reversing hand that is too strong for 3C)

[jtfanclub]

Question on Standard bidding:

What does this aution show:

1m - something,

3m

 

6+ cards and 16-18 total points?

Is this a trick question?

 

You don't have 16 hcp. I'd argue that if partner responds 1 spade, you don't even have 15 hcp. Maybe 14.

 

I would not bid 2♦ if partner responded 1♥, unless we had agreed that it's not forcing across a sub-minimum response. Way too likely to end up in an impossible game. But I can understand why that's a minority position.

[jillybean]

C’mon folks, I like my off shape 1nt’s but didn’t you notice the ;) ? :P

 

Here is the hand.

 

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ 5 ♥ Q8 ♦ AJ82 ♣ AKJ942

As for the rebid: 3♣.... now, if my biggest 'x' were a 7 or a 6, maybe 2♣, but if I have the 9 in either minor, a clear 3♣.

No way am I reversing: I play strong reverses, and, unless I hold a decent 3 card fit for partner's raise, I won't reverse with less than a wonderful 17.

I agree with hrothgar & jdonn

 

p.s. 1C - 1M - 3C has the same minimum strength as 1C - 1M - 2D, it just shows a different hand type. So you can't have a hand that is worth a 3C rebid but not worth a reverse.

 

(As a reverse is forcing and 3C isn't, you can have a reversing hand that is too strong for 3C)

 

 

 

So it fits with Mikes 3♣ and Frances 2♣, take your pick or perhaps they will elaborate.

[foo]

Some basic logic; hopefully to the rescue.

 

A reverse forces the auction to at least 2N or 3ofasuit. Often when the hands are a misfit.

 

Making 2N requires ~23 Playing points.

 

Thus to make a reverse opposite a Responder who may well only have 6 HCP, =especially= in the presence of a misfit, requires 17+ HCP.

 

Change the OP hand to x.Kxx.AJxx.AKJxx and a reverse after 1♣-1♥;?? is much more plausible. But after 1♣-1♠;?? a reverse is still a bit risky.

[skjaeran]

Agree with Richard, Josh and Frances. Open 1♣ and rebid 2♣ over 1♠, reverse with 2♦ over 1♥.

 

Over 1♦ I'll raise to 2♦ - close to 3♦, but not really good enough IMO.

[mikeh]

 

p.s. 1C - 1M - 3C has the same minimum strength as 1C - 1M - 2D, it just shows a different hand type. So you can't have a hand that is worth a 3C rebid but not worth a reverse.

 

(As a reverse is forcing and 3C isn't, you can have a reversing hand that is too strong for 3C)

Well, I disagree with this: in my view, it is entirely possible to have a hand good enough to jump rebid and not good enough to reverse. As I (and others) have written before, there are two schools of thought on reverses. Those who use 'weak' reverses ('weak' is a relative term here) would, I think, agree with Frances. Those who use 'strong' reverses, and I am one, would disagree.

 

My understanding, which may well be in error, is that the weak reverse, while fairly common in NA, is more common in the UK, where Acol has historically been a 'looser' method than Std American or its derivatives (and 'looser' is a neutral term here, I do NOT mean to imply either approach has any inherent superiority over the other).

[ArcLight]

Question on Standard bidding:

What does this aution show:

1m - something,

3m

 

6+ cards and 16-18 total points?

Is this a trick question?

 

You don't have 16 hcp. I'd argue that if partner responds 1 spade, you don't even have 15 hcp. Maybe 14.

 

I would not bid 2♦ if partner responded 1♥, unless we had agreed that it's not forcing across a sub-minimum response. Way too likely to end up in an impossible game. But I can understand why that's a minority position.

Its not a trick question, I said total points (includes distribution) not HCP.

[jdonn]

 

p.s. 1C - 1M - 3C has the same minimum strength as 1C - 1M - 2D, it just shows a different hand type. So you can't have a hand that is worth a 3C rebid but not worth a reverse.

 

(As a reverse is forcing and 3C isn't, you can have a reversing hand that is too strong for 3C)

Well, I disagree with this: in my view, it is entirely possible to have a hand good enough to jump rebid and not good enough to reverse. As I (and others) have written before, there are two schools of thought on reverses. Those who use 'weak' reverses ('weak' is a relative term here) would, I think, agree with Frances. Those who use 'strong' reverses, and I am one, would disagree.

 

My understanding, which may well be in error, is that the weak reverse, while fairly common in NA, is more common in the UK, where Acol has historically been a 'looser' method than Std American or its derivatives (and 'looser' is a neutral term here, I do NOT mean to imply either approach has any inherent superiority over the other).

Wow interesting, I thought it was completely standard and normal that reverses and jump rebids show the exact same (minimum) range. I do not consider myself a weak or light reverse, that is how I have always learned and played. Go figure.

[jtfanclub]

Its not a trick question, I said total points (includes distribution) not HCP.

I've never seen somebody include two points for a singleton in partner's suit and no fit as yet.

 

So what do you do with, say

 

Axx

x

AJx

AKJxxx

 

That's too strong, apparently, to bid 3♣ with.

 

Keep in mind, since you're required to have at least 2 points of distribution to bid 3♣, you're saying that 3♣ shows basically 13-16 hcp.

[ArcLight]

Its not a trick question, I said total points (includes distribution) not HCP.

I've never seen somebody include two points for a singleton in partner's suit and no fit as yet.

 

So what do you do with, say

 

Axx

x

AJx

AKJxxx

 

That's too strong, apparently, to bid 3♣ with.

 

Keep in mind, since you're required to have at least 2 points of distribution to bid 3♣, you're saying that 3♣ shows basically 13-16 hcp.

Its not 2 HCP for a singleton, its 2 for the extra Club length 6 card suit. 6-4 = 2.

 

Total points = HCP + length

 

 

 

Axx

x

AJx

AKJxxx

 

This is a Reverse to 2♦. If the J was stiff I'd treat it as 0 and just bid 3♣

 

 

 

>>Keep in mind, since you're required to have at least 2 points of distribution to bid 3♣, you're saying that 3♣ shows basically 13-16 hcp.

 

No I'm not. You are misunderstanding.

3♣ shows 16-18 total points, just as I said. Thats probably in the range of 14/15 - 17

[jtfanclub]

Its not 2 HCP for a singleton, its 2 for the extra Club length 6 card suit. 6-4 = 2.

 

Total points = HCP + length

.

.

.

 

No I'm not. You are misunderstanding.

3♣ shows 16-18 total points, just as I said. Thats probably in the range of 14/15 - 17

If total points = HCP + Length (2 points for a 6 card suit)

 

And

 

If 3♣ shows 16-18 total points and 6+ clubs,

 

Then 3♣ shows 14-16 hcp with 6 clubs, and less with longer clubs.

 

I don't know anybody who plays that. It's an entertaining thought, because it means that the upper limit for a 3♣ bid is just below the lower limit for a reverse. However, it puts you at the 3 level without a fit and about half the points in the deck if partner was a normal minimum response. Not one of my favorite places to be.

[ArcLight]

Its not 2 HCP for a singleton, its 2 for the extra Club length 6 card suit.  6-4 = 2.

 

Total points = HCP + length

.

.

.

 

No I'm not.  You are misunderstanding.

3♣ shows 16-18 total points, just as I said.  Thats probably in the range of 14/15 - 17

If total points = HCP + Length (2 points for a 6 card suit)

 

And

 

If 3♣ shows 16-18 total points and 6+ clubs,

 

Then 3♣ shows 14-16 hcp with 6 clubs, and less with longer clubs.

 

I don't know anybody who plays that. It's an entertaining thought, because it means that the upper limit for a 3♣ bid is just below the lower limit for a reverse. However, it puts you at the 3 level without a fit and about half the points in the deck if partner was a normal minimum response. Not one of my favorite places to be.

You find it "entertaining"?

 

Thats what Fred Gitelmans software says. (on the ACBL web page)

 

A Medium Opener (16-18 total points) = jump rebid of the same suit

It guarantees 6 cards.

Total points = HCP + length points

 

This is from his example:

1♣ - 1♥

3♣

 

♠ A x

♥ x x

♦A 9 8

♣A Q J T 8 x

 

15 HCP + 2 length = 17

 

 

>"I don't know anybody who plays that."

 

Then Fred must be wrong. Good thing I have you to set me straight.

:rolleyes:

 

I suggest you tell Fred he doesn't understand fundamental bidding. I'm sure he will find your opinion "entertaining" :)

[jtfanclub]

You find it "entertaining"?

Yes, as in agreeably amusing or diverting.

 

1♣-1M

 

2♣= 11-13 hcp

3♣= 14-16 hcp

Reverse= 17+ hcp

 

I kind of like the idea. I'll have to think about it.

 

But I don't know anybody who actually plays it that weak, cf. other people's posts in this thread.

[foo]

A little tighter.

 

Open 1suit and rebid 3suit w/

a= 6 cards in suit and 15-17 working HCP

b= 7 cards in suit and 14-16 working HCP

c= 8 cards in suit and 13-15 working HCP.

 

Personally I do not think ♠x♥Qx♦AJxx♣AKJxxx is worth a 3♣ rebid after 1♣-1♠;??

The ♥Q is most likely waste paper.

 

Even after 1♣-1♥; ?? I think a 3♣ rebid is a bit on the optimistic side, but I don't object to this anywhere near as much as I do to some of the other possibilities presented in this thread.