Wrong slam

[clayniac]

I know I don't post responses on here; I would rather read what the experts say. I don't know that my replies would be as adequate as the other posters. But I do read regularly.

That being said, in the Thursday, June 14, 9 am ACBL, my regular partner, jmk114, Mike from Phoenix, Arizona, and I had a friendly disagreement on the following hand; and I bid the wrong slam (♥ instead of the right slam ♣ ) on the following hand after a 2 ♠ pre-empt on my right:

I pick up 25 HCPs!!! ♠ A8 ♥ AK8 ♦ AKJ ♣ AQ942.

 

After 2 ♠ on my right, Mike thought I should start with 3 ♣. I thought with 25 highs, I should start with a double.

Bidding went: p-2 ♠-double-3 ♠

4 ♥-p- 6 ♥.

 

Hearts 4-2 with queen off as expected. Mike played for that, but he is down a few. Mike felt bidding should go:

p-2 ♠-3 ♣-3 ♠

and he will raise my clubs, in which case we will get to the cold club slam.

 

Mike's hand: ♠ 2 ♥ JTxx ♦ txxx ♣ AQ9xx.

♦ queen is in the slot. ♥ Qxxx off side.

 

Should i start with a double or with 3 ♣? If I start with a double, how can we get to 6 ♣? After Mike's free bid of 4 ♥, what is my best call?

 

Thanks all,

Patsy

[Fluffy]

Mike is wrong this this time, bidding 3♣ with 5 card suit is wrong when you have 3+ cards on th eother suits, with 25 HCP I'd say its even more wrong.

 

 

The solution is that Mike doubles 3♠ instead of bidding 4♥ (responsive double, asks for your suits), but this is a matter of areements, your partnership might very well just play this double as penalty, then I guess I don't knwo how to reach the right spot.

[clayniac]

miscopied clubs. mike has the missing honors kjxx.

[mikeh]

I am not about to claim that I would have got to the right slam, but I can assure you that your partner was being a result merchant when he claimed that you should start with 3♣. I am one of the strongest proponents, on these fora, of the heavy overcall style, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and it is south of 25 hcp, especially with AKx in the unbid major... often 'adequate' support.

 

As it is, your partner held 14 cards, which makes discussion of his bid problematic.

 

The duplication in clubs (you each held AQxxx) is also unfortunate: a lot depends on how many KJ's there are offside. At least, with AQxxx opposits AQxxx you have a new 'two way finesse' holding!

 

Sorry to be silly.. you had a tough problem and I empathize...

[Apollo81]

When you have a hand stronger than N you have to start with a double rather than just an overcall. Overcalls have upper limits too. Standard for N is somewhere around 17; people have their own styles. 25 HCP clearly merits a power double and your partner is clearly resulting you on this deal.

 

Given that the auction has gone (2♠)-Dbl-(3♠)-4♥, you could have cuebid instead of blasting 6♥. This expresses doubt about the strain and partner could have bid his clubs. I might have missed this one as I'd have probably passed with your partner's hand rather than bid 4♥.

[clayniac]

If partner passes, I bid 3 nt, and he probably will pass. still a better score than 6 hearts down two or three.

 

I should q bid over 4 hearts, then we may find club slam.

[P_Marlowe]

Ok, 3C is ..., it just shows a min. opener

and you are 3 Aces to strong for that bid.

 

After 4H, 6H looks like the practical bid,

you could try 6C as a fit jump, giving partner

the choice between 6C and 6H, but ...

you need trust in your partner, real trust, I

trust my regular partner, but would probably

bid 6H.

 

6C is something for the bar.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

If partner passes, I bid 3 nt, and he probably will pass. still a better score than 6 hearts down two or three.

 

I should q bid over 4 hearts, then we may find club slam.

4♠ has some merits, asking partner to do something intelligent, but it sufre sounds like the start of a slam probe with a hand that agrees spades. I doubt that partner will catch on to pass clubs when he has J10xx in hearts and KJx in clubs.

 

A more practical approach might be 4NT. With no assured fit, 4NT should not be ace-asking, but minors, IMO. If partner elects clubs, you bid 6♣. If he elects diamonds, you bid 6♥ and hope that his hearts are not as cruddy as J10xx.

 

My choice, however, would be 5NT, choice of slams. If partner has a fifth heart, he will usually bid 6♥. If partner has a four-card club suit, hopefully, he will bid 6♣. If partner has a four-card diamond suit and bids 5♦, 5♥ by you makes sense -- heart slam interest but uncertainty -- although 6NT might be more practical.

 

All that said, 6♥ is reasonable. Bidding 3♣ instead of doubling is unreasonable.

[Finch]

Overcalling 3C on a prime 25-count is unreasonable.

 

When you have to start slam investigations with the opponents at the 3S level it's always going to be difficult.

 

Personally I prefer a responsive double on your partner's 1444 hand, because opposite a 2344 15-count (a perfectly good double of 2S) 4H will not be a picnic.

 

Opposite a responsive double I would drive slam on your hand, though the auction is still not easy.

[mikeh]

If partner passes, I bid 3 nt, and he probably will pass.  still a better score than 6 hearts down two or three.

 

I should q bid over 4 hearts, then we may find club slam.

If partner passes the raise to 3♠: don't bid 3N. You have no reason to think you can make 9 tricks after the obvious ♠ lead: you can't know about the ♣s coming home... the auction is entirely consistent with partner being completely broke.

 

At the same time, you cannot pass. Partner need not be broke and, even when he is, if he has a 5 or 6 card suit somewhere, that likely plays better than defending 3♠ undoubled.

 

My advice, and I don't think it is close, is that you double a second time.

 

That double says that you have a stronger hand than you might have held for the first double. It does not show 25 hcp (no bid shows that), but it announces ownership of the hand.

 

Partner is allowed to pass: and should pass with a 3=3=3=4 zero count, as an example. Sure, 3♠ will sometimes make on those hands, but often times bidding generates 800!

 

Bridge is imperfect, and you can't always attain the best result that could be attained seeing all the cards. You just try to hit the ball down the middle, accepting the occasional poor result.

 

If you double, then partner certainly bids with his 1=4=4=4. The question is :what?

 

I still don't see reaching ♣s, whether he bids 4♥ immediately or later. Doubling and bidding 5♣ over 4♥ shows a different type of hand: a very strong hand to be sure, but a better and longer ♣ suit.

 

x AKx AJx AKJxxx is such a hand, altho many would choose 3♠ over 2♠, asking for a spade stopper for 3N.... I'd need solid ♣s and probably a little less suitability for a red suit slam for that call.

 

The only way to reach clubs would seem to be a responsive double by partner over 3♠. I like that call, since he is 1=4=4=4 and have modest values.

 

Over that, on a high level, one might try 4♠, forcing and asking him to bid his cheapest decent suit. In turn that might fetch 4N: saying that he has no preference, and you could then bid 6♣. But this is all conjecture..

 

Ti reach slam, each partner would have to make the 'right' (in the sense of what works, not necessarily what is single-dummy best) decision several times.

 

Put another way: if you and your partner are able to bid these two hands to 6♣ with assurance that you knew what you were doing.... turn pro :blink:

[foo]

As usual, Frances and mikeh get the core arguments dead on.

 

You should X (what a moose! :) ).

When Responder bids (3♠), pd w/ ♠x♥JTxx♦Txxx♣KJxx should X.

 

Now you have a choice. You know pd does not have 5+♥'s and rates to be very short in ♠'s.

 

So the question with ♠A8♥AK8♦AKJ♣AQ9xx.

Is usually going to be a choice between NT or ♣'s and a choice between game or slam.

 

You also need to be cautious regarding slam given that RHO 2♠ opening could well be ♠KQJxxx♥xxx♦xxx♣x, and that means nothing will be on side.

 

My choice would be to bid 5♣. This is !not! To Play.

 

It says "I was going to X then bid my suit. Here's my suit. If you have extras in this context, bid 6."

 

I do not know if Advancer holding ♠x♥JTxx♦Txxx♣KJxx is going to decide that their stiff ♠ and KJxx of ♣'s are enough to bid 6♣, but at least We are going plus in the correct strain.