what would you say to me if you were my pick up pa

[sceptic]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=st43h943dqjt4cj93&w=saj962h8da62ckqt5&e=skq7hakqj72d85ca7&s=s85ht65dk973c8642]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     Pass  1♥    Pass

 1♠    Pass  4♠    Pass

 4NT   Pass  5♣    Pass

 6♠    Pass  Pass  Pass

 

 

 

one comment made was I should bid 5 hearts to show 2 aces, despite my pard having 0314 on his profile, which I annouced I was using

 

 

Then can you comment on the bidding

[Walddk]

Not only should you show ♠K as an "ace" (spades are agreed), but you should also show ♠Q while you're at it.

 

If you play 0314 as you state, two keycards with and without trump queen is part of the Roman Keycard system. However, if you play ordinary Blackwood, I think it's a good idea not to say that you play 0314 (or 1430 for that matter).

 

As always, you need an agreement. Apparently, 0314 wasn't enough.

 

As an aside, I do not agree with your leap to 4♠. That should show 4 card support because you guarantee a fit. Then what? Well, too complicated and not really the topic here.

 

Roland

 

EDIT: Only now did I realise that you have three keycards, so your response was correct (0 or 3). Your partner could then have continued with 5♦ to ask for spade queen and outside kings.

[Fluffy]

Not only should you show ♠K as an "ace" (spades are agreed), but you should also show ♠Q while you're at it.

 

If you play 0314 as you state, two keycards with and without trump queen is part of the Roman Keycard system. However, if you play ordinary Blackwood, I think it's a good idea not to say that you play 0314 (or 1430 for that matter).

I missed at first that he has 3 key cards, not 2 (Faield to see ♣A). Seems to me you did the same.

 

Wayne, your keycard response is right of course, what its not right is the 4♠ bid.

 

With that shape you can normally try 2NT, partner will let you raise him with 3 cards anytime he has 5.

 

On the hand given it is even worse, your heart suit plays better than the spade one even opposite a void. If you are unlucky you can go down on trumps to ♠ when 4♥ is easy.

[goobers]

I have no idea what to bid after 1S.

[bid_em_up]

one comment made was I should bid 5 hearts to show 2 aces, despite my pard having 0314 on his profile, which I annouced I was using

 

 

Then can you comment on the bidding

Personally, I don't like the 4S call holding only KQx of spades and a solid 6 card heart suit. I would have rebid 3H instead (or possibly a flawed 2N). But I wouldn't say anything about it at the table.

 

As far as your partner's comment goes, ignore it. It is obviously the comment of someone who wouldn't know what a keycard was if it jumped up and bit him on the butt.

 

As you mentioned, he had 0314 in his profile, you have shown 0 or 3 keycards (confirming your side has all of them; from his holdings, it is impossible for you to have zero and a 4S bid), and he had a trump queen ask available. Over 5D (Q ask), I think you can easily bid 6H confirming the trump queen and putting emphasis on pitches that will be available in the heart suit. It should be easy for him to bid 7S now.

 

Additionally, his leap to 6S normally confirms you are missing a keycard. The failure to ask for kings tends to imply either you are missing a keycard or have no interest in a grand.

 

On this particular hand, I'd give you 10% blame (4S call), and him 90%. I want to give him 100%, but I really dislike 4S. :lol:

[sceptic]

ok, I can see why you do not like 4spades, (that is part of the reason I posted this hand)

 

2NT is (or has been passed by pick up p's before) and 3!h is also not focing to game, I really disliked bidding a minor sit at the 3 level as I personally think that is more misleading in distribution than my 4 spade bid (but I am happy to be slated to death because of my statement,) so feel free to tell me how it should be bid if you were in my position

[Walddk]

Personally, I don't like the 4S call holding only KQx of spades and a solid 6 card heart suit. I would have rebid 3H instead

Are you serious? 3♥ is indeed encouraging but it is also non-forcing in any system I know. You must surely force to game with that hand. Whether you bid 2♦, 3♣ or 4♥ is a matter of agreement, but I certainly don't want to risk that 3♥ is passed out.

 

Do you think he will raise with

 

J10xxx

x

xxx

Kxxx

 

Roland

[mikeh]

I agree with the keycard comments above. As for East's bid over 1♠, I sympathize: it is tough without agreements. However, 3♥ would be silly: I'd far rather (mis)bid 4♥ than risk playing in 3♥.

 

My own preference is 3♣: the fake jumpshift. 3♣ is always suspect in standard treatments.. and some have gone further and expressly use 3♣ as multi-purpose gf, which may or may not include real ♣s. Here, 3♣ would get West excited.. he'd bid a (forcing) 4♣ or might, if an impetuous type or concerned you might pass 4♣, use keycard. Once he reblacks, assuring you of all of the keycards, I'd bid 7N.

[blackshoe]

I would guess that West meant the 0314 on his profile to mean that he plays Roman Blackwood (note: I did not write "Roman Keycard Blackwood".) In that method, 5♥ shows 2 aces and no additional values, while 2♠ shows 2 aces and additional values, which East seems to have. So I'd say 5♠ is the right bid. Unless, of course, West is playing some other version of Roman BW. :P

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I don't like the 4S call holding only KQx of spades and a solid 6 card heart suit.  I would have rebid 3H instead

Are you serious? 3♥ is indeed encouraging but it is also non-forcing in any system I know. You must surely force to game with that hand. Whether you bid 2♦, 3♣ or 4♥ is a matter of agreement, but I certainly don't want to risk that 3♥ is passed out.

 

Do you think he will raise with

 

J10xxx

x

xxx

Kxxx

 

Roland

No, I think he will pass 1H on this hand like he should and let opps reopen which then allows you to bid 4H at your 2nd call.

 

Alternatively, having lied initially, he will bid 3S. Competent partners are not passing 3H though on your suggested hand. 3H is effectively 100% g/f unless partner has responded some crappy total bust that is void in hearts, imo.

 

Btw, 2D is non-game forcing in any system I have ever heard of either. I can't stand jump shifts into 2 card suits, so that eliminates 3C or 3D (at least for me, although it would work nicely on this hand). 4H tends to shut out the alternative contracts and say this hand only plays in hearts. And if partner cannot raise 3H to 4H, because of a suggested hand like yours, it is very unlikely 4H is making. Yes, on your suggested hand, 4H would make. Change it to 10xxxx x Kxx Jxxx and how do you like your chances in 4H? Not so good anymore, are they?

 

Would you expect partner to bid 4S over a direct 4H? After you just said, HEARTS ARE TRUMP!!! If anything, 4S now would be a cue agreeing hearts at that point, right?!? So you preclude him from that. He might, however, bid 3S over 3H, allowing you to reach the makeable spade game.

 

This leaves 2N or 3H. Yes, both are flawed. Sometimes it is an option of picking the lesser flaw. I happen to choose 3H on this particular hand as the lesser of all evils.

 

You are free to do whatever you wish.

[Walddk]

Competent partners are not passing 3H though on your suggested hand. 3H is effectively 100% g/f unless partner has responded some crappy total bust that is void in hearts, imo.

 

<snip>

 

You are free to do whatever you wish.

3♥ effectively game-forcing? You must have invented your own system.

 

<snip>

 

So are you obviously. "However, 3♥ would be silly", mikeh wrote. Well put.

 

Roland

[paulg]

what would you say to me if you were my pick up pa

I'd tell you to listen to Uncle Mike.

 

p

[jdonn]

3H is effectively 100% g/f unless partner has responded some crappy total bust that is void in hearts, imo.

This is bridge we are talking about, right? :P The system you seem to be playing is a new one on me. Any very minimum response with short hearts has an automatic pass.

[Edmunte1]

4♠ is not the best bid. You need some mechanisms here to show a GF hand. Playing in a pick-up partnership 3♣ seems the most sensible choice. Possible bidding:

 

1♥ ----- 1♠

3♣ ----- 4♣

4♥ ----- 4♠ (confirming ♦ cue too)

4NT ----- 5♣ (3KC in♣)

5♦ ----- 5♠ (♣Q)

7NT

 

Of course this method has flaws especially if partner has ♦K instead of ♦A and 5 spades headed by AJ, but we're taking about pick-up partnerships, so we should be content with that.

[Fluffy]

I actually have problems bidding 7 here, whatever the sequence I end with

 

W - E

4♣-4M (no diamond control sadly)

4NT-5♦

 

 

And west has no way to count 13 tricks, nor even to show all key cards (he misses trump queen).

 

Edmunte suggestion of West bidding 4♠ looks nice, but I know either me or my parnter would bid 4NT instead.

[mike777]

Prefer to simply open 2clubs rather than j/s into a fake suit, in this case one that is only 2 cards long.

I have plenty of controls, a long major, and a 4 loser hand.

 

This opening one heart and rebidding 4s or 3H leaves me ill. ;)

[un6c]

It's a tough call. Game-forcing hands with 3-card support for partner's response are just hard to bid, in particular in standard-ish mehods. There are nice treatments available, including artificial meanings for jumpshifts/reverses, or Gazilli in this auction. But in a pickup partnership, you are stuck. With the kind of pickup partner you seemed to be having, I am not sure a jumpshift into a 2-card suit would work out that well. Obviously, 3H and 3S are out, being non-forcing. So in my opinion, it comes down to 4H or 4S. Between them, I kind of prefer 4S - seems more likely to work out. Moysian fits are not the end of the world, in particular if you have shortness with the short trumps.

[rbforster]

3♣ for me playing standard methods, followed by bidding a major depending on what partner says next. If he can't rebid spades (only 4) I'm happy to play 4♥.

[Codo]

Hi Wayne,

 

if you play that a 2 Club opener is a real gf with 9+ playing tricks or 23+ HCPs, you must open 1 Heart.

 

If you hate the problems with pick up pds who blame you for inventing strong jump shifts on doubeltons, your choice is between 4 Heart and 4 Spade. I like your choice.

I won´t like my regular pd to make bids like this, but with a pick up, this was the smallest lie.

 

And of course 3 Club instead of 4 Spade had not solved any problems at all. At the given hand, he may had bid 4 Club, showing the fit and you proceed with?

3 Diamond showing a control or asking?

4 Heart showing 6 Hearts and a place to play or a control and no Diamond control?

4 Spade. delayed support or lacking controls in the red suits?

4 NT? To Play or Blackwood?

 

These things simply happen with pick ups.

 

His comments about Blackwood are silly, nothing to add.

[helene_t]

I would have rebid 2N but in the absense of agreements (is partner's next 3♣ bid natural weak, natural forcing, NMF or Wolf?) the choice must be between 2N, 3♣, 4♥ and 4♠. I don't think 3♥ has any merrit over 2N or 3♣ since it is at least as distorted and takes up more bidding space. 4♠ has the advantage that partner will at least appreciate that you allowed him to declare.

 

As for the RKC issue, you're right of course. I'm surprised there can be discussion about this. Many people put conventions on their profile without having much clue about how they work, but this is really extreme. Besides, did partner really think you could have zero aces for your 4♠ rebid?

 

I wouldn't open 2♣ with this one. Maybe in the context of Benji, so that your 2♥ rebid would be non-forcing.

[foo]

♠ KQx ♥ AKQJxx ♦ 8x ♣ Ax

 

Is certainly strong enough in my world to Open 2C:

4 losers, 6 controls, a trump suit that will play for no losers opposite x;

looks pretty good to me.

 

Personally, this hand fits my psychological criteria for opening 2C:

If I open 1H and the hand gets passed out, would I be sick to my stomach with the thought that We had just missed a game?

If the answer is "yes", it's time to Open 2C.

 

If you don't open this 8 - 8 1/2 trick 19 count 2C, then the SA rebid after

1H-1S;?? is 4H

(see a recent Bramley and Lazard board for something similar)

[jdonn]

If you don't open this 8 - 8 1/2 trick 19 count 2C, then the SA rebid after

1H-1S;?? is 4H

I actually agree with this statement that technically 4♥ is the systematic rebid, but 4♥ is such a bad bid anyway that I would never make it. I think (short of an artificial 2NT rebid or something) that faking 3♣ is obvious. I have made bids like that many times and have not had one single disaster. I feel people who say they hate bids like that are just fearful of what looks unfamiliar to them, when in actuality there is little danger and great upside. There are numerous hands that make slam where partner will pass a 4♥ or 4♠ rebid.

[gwnn]

3 losers is a little optimistic.

[firmit]

Wasn't there a thread discussing the rebid of 2NT after this sequence - showing 3 card support and solid 6 card prime suit? I can't find it... but it was not that long ago...

[Codo]

If you don't open this 8 - 8 1/2 trick 19 count 2C, then the SA rebid after

1H-1S;?? is 4H

I actually agree with this statement that technically 4♥ is the systematic rebid, but 4♥ is such a bad bid anyway that I would never make it. I think (short of an artificial 2NT rebid or something) that faking 3♣ is obvious. I have made bids like that many times and have not had one single disaster. I feel people who say they hate bids like that are just fearful of what looks unfamiliar to them, when in actuality there is little danger and great upside. There are numerous hands that make slam where partner will pass a 4♥ or 4♠ rebid.

How do you solve the next rebid problems after:

1 ♥ 1 ♠ 3 ♣

 

-3 NT pass and miss the 5-3 spade fit taking 6 Heart and pds diamond stop for 3 down? Or pull to 4 Heart and hope pd will understand and not correct to 5 club with 5044?

4 ♣? you proceed with?

5 ♣? you bid of xyz shows what?

 

Don´t get me wrong, there are for sure good definitions possible- put the problem was given opposite a pick up pd. And I doubt that there is a great consensus, about how to bid on after each of this bids.

 

And I doubt too that 4 Heart is the systemic bid. This bid shows in no way at all the structure and strength of the hand. It shows a one suiter which does not care about pds spades. No good describtion of the hand at all. Do you think, that pd with Axxxxx,-,Axx,xxx will take you to the grand? But he may will after your 4 Spade bid.

I think there simply is no "systemic" call to show these hands. That is why 2 NT to show 35xy was discussed here before...