another yer bid

[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ T82 ♥ AK4 ♦ T4 ♣ A8754

 

West North East South

 

 1♦    3♣    Pass  ?

  

[gwnn]

5♣. Game shouldn't be missed, but thinking of slam would be utter gluttony. Obviously, this is after the usual "it would be good if I knew what style we're preempting". With very wild preempts even R/W it should be better to bid 3♦

[jtfanclub]

5♣. Game shouldn't be missed, but thinking of slam would be utter gluttony.

Wow. Not often I'm the conservative one.

 

4♣. Way too many losers for me to bid 5 on my own. 3♦ second choice.

 

The pass makes me extremely nervous. Surely East has lots of suits to choose from. West must be sitting on a 4-4-4-1 pile, and I have no intention of sacrificing red vs. white at the 5 level.

[mike777]

5c giving up on slam.

[cherdano]

5C.

[jdonn]

This would be more interesting at mps, but at imps I won't lose sleep if I go for 500 into their game, so easy 5♣ to me.

[kenrexford]

I'm having difficulty finding where there is an agreement that a red-on-white 3♣ jump overcall after a 1♦ opening is preemptive, which would be a sick agreement for me to have.

 

More likely is that 3♣ shows a player hand, with six or more good clubs and values, suggesting the possibility of a 3NT contract.

 

With AK in hearts on the outside, and the Ace of clubs, 3♦ seems obvious to me. Partner must have at least KQJxxx in clubs, giving us six tricks there. Adding in a diamond stopper gets us to nine tricks, so long as they cannot cash four spades and a diamond, or five spades, or something like that. Partner's call strongly suggests that this risk is minimal.

 

But, even if partner for some reason has actual junk, something approaching a preempt at these colors, with diamonds stopped, 3NT is a fair bet anyway.

 

So, 3♦ for me.

[jdonn]

Preemptive doesn't have to mean terrible hand. KQJTxxx and a king and a singleton is preemptive but hardly insane.

[inquiry]

Odd hand.

 

Partner has bunches of clubs to the KQJ...

 

Normally I would try 3♦ looking for a diamond stopper. But give partner something like... ♦A or ♦K to go along with his clubs, then where are the spades? Partner can hardly have ♦ ace, seven good clubs, and a spade stopper too.

 

So if I catch him with a diamond stopper, we will be off the entire spade suit, and I assume WEST can look in his hand and find an honor spade lead if it goes...

 

1D-3C-P-3D

P- 3NT....

 

 

So 3♦ is out. Next is can we make 5♣? For a vul versus non-vul 3♣ bid, partner really needs at least 8 tricks in his hand. I contribute three (club ace, heart AK). That is 11 tricks. But we could easily be off AK of spades and AK of diamonds. Still, no room to investigate, so I blast to 5♣. Further, someone is surely void in spades, so they may lose just the heart AK and partners side suit winner and make something like 4H or 4S.

[pbleighton]

I'm having difficulty finding where there is an agreement that a red-on-white 3♣ jump overcall after a 1D opening is preemptive, which would be a sick agreement for me to have.

 

There are a lot of sick pairs out there, according to your definition :)

 

I expect something like the hand Josh referred to, and bid 5C.

 

Peter

[whereagles]

Think I'm gonna psyche a 3♠ bid here.. lol.

[jtfanclub]

Sorry, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

 

You knew I'd say that, didn't you?

 

 

For a vul versus non-vul 3♣ bid, partner really needs at least 8 tricks in his hand. I contribute three (club ace, heart AK). That is 11 tricks. But we could easily be off AK of spades and AK of diamonds. Still, no room to investigate, so I blast to 5♣. Further, someone is surely void in spades, so they may lose just the heart AK and partners side suit winner and make something like 4H or 4S.

 

You expect partner, who doesn't have the ace of clubs, to have at least 8 tricks in this hand.

 

Then you say that they may just lose the heart AK and partner's side suit winner.

 

So...you're giving partner 8 clubs to go with your 5? If he 'only' has 7 clubs, then he has at least two side suit tricks to have 8+ tricks. If he has at least two side suit tricks, the odds they have game to me look pretty close to nil.

 

I'm only expecting 7 tricks...6 clubs KQJ, two side suit winners. Could partner have 7 clubs and 1 side suit winner, the hand jdonn gave? Sure. But with 5 clubs myself, I would think that 6 clubs and two winners is a lot more likely than 7 clubs and one winner.

 

So, I'll say this, and then stop, I promise.

 

A hand like...

KQx

x

xxx

KQJTxx

 

Not strong enough for 3 clubs? Too strong? Not enough clubs?

 

What's wrong with my typical 3♣ pre-empt, Red on White?

[inquiry]

I am expecting something like

 

A

T9xx

x

KQJTxxx

[mike777]

edit

[kenrexford]

What hand are y'all playing for when you bid 5♣ but do not try for 3NT??? If partner has a stiff, it's just as likely to be in hearts as anywhere else.

 

What hand will he accidentally bid 3NT and go down, where 5♣ makes?

 

For that matter, is partner some kind of "yes man"? Can't he bid 3♥ or 3♠ with a diamond stopper but another problem?

 

The auction I hope for:

 

1♦-3♣(something not insane)-P-3♦(interest in 3NT, needing a stopper)-

P-3♠(I can stop diamonds, and I have something in spades, but I need heart help)-P-3NT, or even better if 3M by partner asks rather than tells (in case he has problems in both majors).

 

That's below 5♣, and intelligent, cooperative bidding.

 

Heck, if I knew that partner was insanely aggressive, I'd still bid 3♦. If my RHO happens to have a fifth spade, and the opponents cash five spades, and my partner had a stiff spade with the diamond King, maybe partner will be more careful in accepting 3NT without showing a problem.

[kenrexford]

Posts keep coming in as I type.

 

Comment is required.

 

I'm not sure I get this. We are at 3♣ whenh decisions start. We have a cuebid available, in the suit imediately above our suit, which happens to allow all suits to be discussed below 3NT. This is great stuff. We are willing to go to the five-level. This is really great stuff.

 

So, we guess one possible pattern and holding that partner might have, and we leap to the right spot if he has that hand.

 

???

 

Ask partner. He has a brain. He can think also.

 

Tell partner. He will understand. "I have interest in 3NT. I have no diamond stopper. What do you think about that?"

 

Seems so easy.

[cherdano]

Ken, get off your drugs. There is almost no hand that is a 3♣ preempt that makes 3N good. Partner has shortness, why exactly should it be in hearts, rather than spades or diamonds? If he bids 3N over 3♦, do you really think that promises a spade stopper? A 3♣ preempt can't stop 2 suits, otherwise it wouldn't be a preempt.

Meanwhile, we have a 12-card fit. I suspect the opponents have a fit too.

 

Arend

 

"Ein Geisterfahrer? Hunderte!"

[kenrexford]

Ken, get off your drugs. There is almost no hand that is a 3♣ preempt that makes 3N good. Partner has shortness, why exactly should it be in hearts, rather than spades or diamonds? If he bids 3N over 3♦, do you really think that promises a spade stopper? A 3♣ preempt can't stop 2 suits, otherwise it wouldn't be a preempt.

Meanwhile, we have a 12-card fit. I suspect the opponents have a fit too.

 

Arend

 

"Ein Geisterfahrer? Hunderte!"

One suggested plausible holding was ♠A ♥109xx ♦x ♣KQJxxxx. I suppose a wildly different hand, like ♠109xx ♥x ♦A ♣KQJxxxx must be impossibly different and hence impossible.

 

The fact that I might actually ask partner if he has a hand like that is irrelevant, as he just won't have it. And, besides, the opponents will cash the first five spade tricks, because the passed hand will hold AKQJx in spades. If we bid, instead, 5♣, he will never find that lead, and we will catch him in a spade-heart squeeze (he also holds 10xxxxxx for his pass) and make 5♣.

[mike777]

IF you guys are going to make a 3 level preempt in front of an unpassed hand with an outside Ace, that seems a bit tough. All of those examples look like an everyday 2club vul overcall to me.

[kenrexford]

IF you guys are going to make a 3 level preempt in front of an unpassed hand with an outside Ace, that seems a bit tough. All of those examples look like an everyday 2club vul overcall to me.

Well, see, now that's the core of the debate. IMO, red-on-white 3♣ calls do not bring home the cash as simply "I have garbage" bids. It looks, to me, more like a small defense player potential.

 

When has a single side Ace and KQJxxxx in clubs ever been deemed a great defensive hand?

 

However, one side Ace, a bolster, and a semi-solid suit has both 3NT potential and little defense.

 

AND WHY NOT ASK?

[cherdano]

Why not ask? Because 3D doesn't ask the question you are thinking it asks.

 

If partner bids 3S over 3D, that shows a spade fragment, says nothing about a diamond stopper. If he bids 3N over 3D, this shows a diamond stopper, says nothing about a major suit stopper. Whatever you do, you will never know that playing 3N is right. Meanwhile, opponents can double your 3-level bids for the lead (or to compete), or draw the right inferences for the lead against 5C, whereas the rest of the world bids 5C and has a better chance that the opponents make a mistake either in the lead or in the bidding.

 

The side ace has nothing to do with the core of the debate.

[mike777]

IF you guys are going to make a 3 level preempt in front of an unpassed hand with an outside Ace, that seems a bit tough. All of those examples look like an everyday 2club vul overcall to me.

Well, see, now that's the core of the debate. IMO, red-on-white 3♣ calls do not bring home the cash as simply "I have garbage" bids. It looks, to me, more like a small defense player potential.

 

When has a single side Ace and KQJxxxx in clubs ever been deemed a great defensive hand?

 

However, one side Ace, a bolster, and a semi-solid suit has both 3NT potential and little defense.

 

AND WHY NOT ASK?

These examples are clear opening hands for me. Why confuse the heck out of partner by making a preemptive bid with an opening hand in front of an unpassed partner.

 

If partner expects much more than that for an opening bid, ok. If partner expects that you may often have an outside ace for your bid, fine. Otherwise you are confusing the heck out of your partner.

[pclayton]

Hard to construct a hand where 5♣ is good, even at these colors.

 

I suspect LHO has a lot more to say. I'll try a gentle 4♣. Strangely enough, pard sometimes takes the push when its right at this vulnerability.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Pass.

 

Depends on your agreements, if 3C promises at most -2,

than I dont see how this hand can produce 4 tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

Hi,

 

Pass.

 

Depends on your agreements, if 3C promises at most -2,

than I dont see how this hand can produce 4 tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Marlowe:

 

Upon reflection, long reflection :) I agree 5c making is unlikely.

But....5C may still be winning the board bid, yes?

I bid 5c.

1) Assume partner does not have 11 hcp

2) assume partner does not have an ace.

3) assume partner does not have many super 10 hcp hands with long clubs.

4) ?