clubs anyone?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=sajhxdjxcakj109765]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♣ (2♣*) X (2♥)

P (P) ?

 

*majors[/hv]

 

Do you agree with the double?

What do you bid now?

[goobers]

Holy crap.

 

Double for me would be penalty-ish, showing something like a balanced 10 count, and willing to double at least one of their suits. You would probably need some agreements (unusual vs unusual) to show a forcing club raise such as this...

[jillybean]

Holy crap.

Thats almost exactly what I said, I'd hate to think what my p said after the hand B)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the double was ok, it wont help you, i.e. it is just pure

noise, but at least you found out, that partner does

not hold significant heart values, i.e. chances are

great that your side does not have heart stopper.

 

6C is still in the picture, so just bid 4C, which is

forcing, if you want to test partner you may try 3C

(which also should be forcing, ... but it is unclear) or

3H, which asks for a stopper.

 

Instead of double, a cue bid would have been better,

but since this was posted in B/I, ... as I said X was ok.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jillybean]

Instead of double, a cue bid would have been better,

but since this was posted in B/I, ... as I said X was ok.

I give up! I post questions in the A/E forum and I'm told the questions are more

suitable for the B/I forum, I post questions in the B/I forum and I either get told the question is too difficult to answer in the B/I thread or we get dumbed down answers!

 

And Im %^&%^$, I should have cue bid and I should have known it B)

[Walddk]

goobers has a few good points. This hand is enormous and double is a waste of time (at best), assuming that 2♣ is Michaels. Some agreement regarding 2♥ and 2♠ would be nice to have. For me 2♠ is the call that shows a forcing raise in clubs; others reverse it.

 

If I get the chance, my next move is to bid 4♣, forcing when preceded by 2 of their suit. I am hoping to get 4♦ now, and then hopefully I can kickback keycard in 4♥. We could have anything from 5 to 7♣.

 

Since I am not settling for 3NT anyway, another possibility is to bid 4♥ right away. That can hardly be natural, but who knows. The problem with 4♥, however, is that it does not solve my problem in the diamond suit.

 

If I can't have anything of the above, I will just punt 6♣. Maybe that's the practical solution in a pick-up partnership on BBO.

 

Roland

[goobers]

Okay, I've heard kickback all over the place, and I have no idea what it is.

 

It looks like some form of keycard... how exactly does it operate?

 

 

Also, lacking any agreements, I would probably just bid 6♣ (don't ask me what I'd do if LHO comes over with 6M...)

[goobers]

Instead of double, a cue bid would have been better,

but since this was posted in B/I, ... as I said X was ok.

I give up! I post questions in the A/E forum and I'm told the questions are more

suitable for the B/I forum, I post questions in the B/I forum and I either get told the question is too difficult to answer in the B/I thread or we get dumbed down answers!

B)

[pbleighton]

If I can't have anything of the above, I will just punt 6♣. Maybe that's the practical solution in a pick-up partnership on BBO.

 

I'm punting 6C.

 

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Instead of double, a cue bid would have been better,

but since this was posted in B/I, ... as I said X was ok.

I give up! I post questions in the A/E forum and I'm told the questions are more

suitable for the B/I forum, I post questions in the B/I forum and I either get told the question is too difficult to answer in the B/I thread or we get dumbed down answers!

 

And Im %^&%^$, I should have cue bid and I should have known it B)

Hi Kathryn,

 

no offense intended, but I believe that there are more important

stuff to learn than unusual vs. unusual.

If you could have made the bid, than the bid stands out, because

you would have shown the support direct, which is the most

important thing if the auction turns out competitive.

 

And this last sentetnce is one of the things you have to learn

before you start learning scientific stuff, ... the reason why you

learn it.

 

Another important thing to learn is, that it usually is best to tell

partner where the journey is heeded, i.e. in an undisturbed auction,

if you know which strain you want to play than you should immediately

tell this partner, thats why 4C.

If you bid 3H (you learn, if there is no wastage) or 4H (obviously a splinter,

but a splinter for clubs or for your own suit), partner does not know that

clubs are set, he may get the idea, but it is not 100% clear, since the auction

has gone murky, partners answers will be murky, and in the end you have

to guess.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And even if X was not best, you have to interpret the auction,

and the auction did work out ok, i.e. you learnt something, which you

would not have learned, if you had made the cue.

Use the weapons you have as best as you can, accept if you cant do

better, but if your weapons allowed you to learn something, use the

information, antipercentage works sometimes, this is the 3rd thing

you have to learn.

[hrothgar]

Hi Kathryn,

 

no offense intended, but I believe that there are more important

stuff to learn than unusual vs. unusual.

If you could have made the bid, than the bid stands out, because

you would have shown the support direct, which is the most

important thing if the auction turns out competitive.

 

And this last sentetnce is one of the things you have to learn

before you start learning scientific stuff, ... the reason why you

learn it.

 

Another important thing to learn is, that it usually is best to tell

partner where the journey is heeded, i.e. in an undisturbed auction,

if you know which strain you want to play than you should immediately

tell this partner, thats why 4C.

If you bid 3H (you learn, if there is no wastage) or 4H (obviously a splinter,

but a splinter for clubs or for your own suit), partner does not know that

clubs are set, he may get the idea, but it is not 100% clear, since the auction

has gone murky, partners answers will be murky, and in the end you have

to guess.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Marlowe:

 

I was playing with Kathryn when this board came up.

 

If she had bid 4♣ I would have assumed that she had a preemptive club raise.

[Fluffy]

Instead of double, a cue bid would have been better,

but since this was posted in B/I, ... as I said X was ok.

I give up! I post questions in the A/E forum and I'm told the questions are more

suitable for the B/I forum, I post questions in the B/I forum and I either get told the question is too difficult to answer in the B/I thread or we get dumbed down answers!

 

And Im %^&%^$, I should have cue bid and I should have known it :P

Maybe try on interesting bridge hands? B)

 

 

2♠ would be the stadard bid around here (cue= support, and when 2 suits are bid you cue the one in wich you have values).

 

If you failed to cue spades on first round nevermind, just do it on the second.

[jtfanclub]

2♠ would be the stadard bid around here (cue= support, and when 2 suits are bid you cue the one in wich you have values).

I disagree.

 

On the Expert forum, maybe. But playing with an intermediate, I'd X followed by cue bidding their suit, in this case 3♥. Partner may not know what's going on, but it gives me a great idea of how much wastage he has in hearts.

[BillHiggin]

In my opinion, the more modern version of un vs un is well within the grasp of Intermediate players. The most troubling aspect being the existence of incompatible versions.

 

Applies: when the opponents have made a bid showing two specific suits (best when the conventional bid is neither of the suits - i.e. unusual no-trump or michaels cue of a minor). It does not apply when the opponents show one specific suit and promise another that is not specified (i.e. does not apply to michaels cue of a major showing "other major plus a minor").

 

Usage: (low-low version) cue their lower suit to show a strong bid in the lower of the other two, cue their higher suit to show a strong bid in the higher of the other two. Direct bids of either of the other two suits are weaker (default stronger is game forcing, weaker is invitational).

 

Non-touching suits exception. It their suits are non-touching (Hearts and Clubs or Spades and Diamonds) then the cue bids show the next higher suit. This is still low-low when their suits are Hearts and Clubs, but violates that when their suits are Spades and Diamonds (cue Spades for Clubs - still easy to remember because the other way around is clearly nonsense).

 

Verify version before agreeing to this convention. The original version used the cheapest cue as supporting partner's suit so there is a danger that partner might agree to unusual vs unusual but have the older version in mind. Specify "un vs un (lo-lo)" (if that confuses partner, forget about it! Misunderstandings will negate all potential gains).

 

With that agreement, 2!H stands out as a strong club bid instead of double.

[kenrexford]

Well, I'm guessing that you probably can set 2♣. :P

[mike777]

Okay, I've heard kickback all over the place, and I have no idea what it is.

 

It looks like some form of keycard... how exactly does it operate?

 

 

Also, lacking any agreements, I would probably just bid 6♣ (don't ask me what I'd do if LHO comes over with 6M...)

1) Agree with all that a cuebid would have been better than x. See unusual vs unusual as others have said.

2) Kickback=you bid the next higher suit at the 4 level as rkc 0314,

4d for clubs

4h for D

4s for H

4nt for s

 

same at 5 level for specific Kings or as a general grand slam try.

Queen ask is one level higher over partners response, example

 

4d=rkc for clubs, partner bids 4H now you bid 4s as Queen of club ask, etc.

 

Also, if clubs, D or hearts are trumps 4nt is a replacement cuebid for the kickback suit. Example.....clubs are trumps....so 4d is rkc but 4nt is a D cuebid.

 

If bidding touching suits such as hearts and Diamonds you need to discuss how to bid kickback. Here is one such example.

 

1h=1s

2d=4h? I play this is kickback for D not a heart raise.

 

to raise hearts you would need to bid slower often 4sf:

1h=1s

2d=3c

3nt=4h 4h here is natural.

 

In any event if playing kickback expect disasters and confusion when you start out.

[goobers]

What is the point of this? To conserve space in the keycard responses so you don't get shoved into a slam if partner answers too high?

 

Also, where does the name kickback come from?

[Walddk]

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Convent...backRubens.html

[mikeh]

jb; I hope you are still reading these fora even if you have decided not to post anymore... and don't worry about which thread you post in... altho I echo the suggestion that maybe some of your posts would fit nicely (altho not exclusively) in the interesting hands part.. this freak is certainly one such.

 

As for the answer to your questions, the problem is that freaks are rarely easy to bid... standard bidding methods are designed to cope with the vast majority of hands... and basic standard is relatively inept even at that.

 

It is no surprise that, on the whole, the most successful pairs in the world play extremely detailed methods. Even ostensibly mainstream pairs, such as Zia and Rosenberg, craft innumerable treatments and gadgets upon a basically recognizable mainstream skeleton. This is inevitable, because at the high levels, especially in long team matches, there will be enough unusual bidding problems that the pair with good agreements that enable them to handle the weird situations will do better than the pair that has to make it up as they go along, because their methods are insufficiently detailed.

 

I know you already know that, but I can rarely resist the opportunity to be pedantic ;)

 

So, if you have a version of unusual v unusual, this is an example of why you need it... an extreme example, to be sure. Beware of anyone who claims that there is a mainstream version of un v un: they know not of what they speak. I personally play 3 different versions, according to partner's wishes, and I would not pretend that they are the only ones out there.

 

If you don't play un v un, and while it is certainly a method comprehensible and of sufficient frequency that I'd advise an advancing intermediate to learn a version of it (once you know one version, playing the others iis really easy.. they share common ideas), I can well imagine that most B/I players don't know it.. then the double is probably the logical start. At least, it unambiguously announces strength... and what is the worst that can happen? It ain't going all pass... and if it did, you'd know what to lead :)

 

Having done this, the problem is what next. I would be worried about making any bid that partner could pass below (at least) game.

 

 

I could write at length about the standard meaning of cuebids of a major here, but it will suffice to say that the lack of agreements will reduce whatever you do to a guess. That is the reality of B/I bidding (and, despite all of the bidding science in the world, a reality... albeit in diminishing amounts... of all levels of bridge).

 

Having doubled 2♣ and having heard partner pass, I'd guess that partner lacks a strong 3 card or decent 4 card ♥ holding... which means that either he has short strength or no strength. No strength is good, short strength is not so good: I'd like to be able to count on him for the AK♦.... and the almost certain ♣Q is wasted.

 

I'd bid 6♣ if I felt aggressive (and my frustration at lack of methods would normally make me feel that way) and 5♣ if feeling conservative. I would try 3♥ if I wanted to perpetuate the agony that I was suffering and wanted partner to share in the pain... but then I'd still be bidding 5 or 6♣, almost certainly little the wiser for my cue-bid because I won't know what partner thought I intended.

[cherdano]

Kathryn, whereever you post, frankly there will always be some doubtful answers in BBF and you have to use your own judgment on which answers to trust (if you never trust mine and always trust those of posters who have played successfully on an international level you can hardly go wrong though...). This thread is no exception.

 

Doubling a Michaels cue (or unusual NT) always shows interest in penalizing at least one of their suits - if you have one of their suits stacked, then partner can easily double the other suit with 4 decent trumps. In the situation here there is unfortunately no standard whether cuebids are unusual vs unusual (heart cue shows good hand with clubs and spade cue shows good hand with diamonds) or showing values (heart cue shows good hand with heart stopper, etc.).

 

I would have jumped to 4♥ directly over 2♣, this can only be a splinter for clubs. Of course partner will never expect clubs this strong, and will almost never make a move with only Qxx of trumps, but when he does, at least it will be right to play slam... Usually this will just be a transfer to 5♣, but at least we have a chance, and I don't feel like bidding 6♣ on my own.

[neilkaz]

♣This is the B/I forum so lets keep things simple. However, I highly recommend learning at least a basic unusual over Michaels and Unusual over Unusual.

 

Now with this hand, if you bid 4NT over the Michaels I'd sure take it as RKC or regular Blackwood. for ♣ and hopefully 0314 so that when an aceless opening PD rebids 5♣ you just pass and if he shows an ace I'll take a shot at 6♣ and if he shows both aces, I can bid 5NT or better yet Q bid something below 5NT and hope he carries us to a grand when correct.

 

Kickback and/or Minorwood make it significantly easier to find Minor Suit slams, and I am surprised they aren't more mainstream.

 

Lacking any gadgets, I just bid a quick 6♣ noting that the opps may bid rather high here and I may not find out what I need to know inspite of the vul.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies, What I am ‘giving up’ is trying to post these questions in the appropriate forums. I am not giving up bridge or posting on forums ;) It is frustrating making the same mistakes repeatedly and I am often disappointed with my level of ability. However, I do think I have improved when it comes to knowing whose advice to take and I think that advice is top notch – thank you.

 

On this hand, even if I had cue bid it would have still been a guessing game. I do not have an unusual vs. unusual bid and I wouldn’t want to introduce it in my casual partnerships. Maybe this is something I could work on with Richard.

 

jb

[jillybean]

Oh, the hand!

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sk863ha73da43cq84&s=sajh5dj5cakjt9765]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♣    2♣    Dbl

 2♥    Pass  Pass  5♣

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[blackshoe]

Okay, I've heard kickback all over the place, and I have no idea what it is.

 

It looks like some form of keycard... how exactly does it operate?

When you bid RKCB, the answers can be expressed in 4 steps:

 

1: 0 or 3 keycards (or 1 or 4, see below)

2: 1 or 4 keycards (or 0 or 3)

3: 2 keycards, no trump queen or extra length (with a 10 card fit, you don't need the queen)

4: 2 keycards and the trump queen.

 

When you use 4NT as the only RKCB ask, the fourth step is 5♠. This works fine when spades are trumps, but when any lower ranking suit is trumps, you potentially get forced to the six level by replier's answer. The problem gets worse as the trump suit ranks lower.

 

1430: Eddie Kantar proposed this as a solution to the problem, at least when hearts are trumps. Doesn't work with a minor, but Kantar had other ideas for that, some of which are fairly complex.

 

Kickback solves all problems by one simple agreement: the keycard ask is the denomination above trump. When spades are trump, it's 4NT. When hearts are trump, it's 4♠. When diamonds are trump, it's 4♥, and when clubs are trump, it's 4♦. Simple, elegant, and solves the problem for all trump suits.

 

Some people don't like it, being concerned about possible problems when the previous auction makes the ask suit a possible place to play, for example after 1♠-2♥-3♥-4♠. The simplest way to deal with this is just to agree that Kickback takes precedence.

 

LOL! I missed Mike's previous answer. ;)

[blackshoe]

Interesting. I'm not sure even Kickback helps here. Suppose the bidding goes 1♣-2♣-4♦-5♣. Partner has told you he has two aces and the ♣Q, so you have all the keycards and the queen. Is that enough? You have five losers, and partner has shown you 3 cover cards. You need to know if he has a side king, or a singleton in a pointy suit, but if you ask, and he doesn't have it, you're down 1 in 6♣.

 

I think we have to find another way. ;)