Acol question

[Echognome]

...and didn't they play Reese's Little Major system instead of Acol most of the time?

No. They didn't play Little Major very often.

I checked some old records. Reese and Shapiro played Little Major quite a bit and so did Reese and Flint (who co-designed it).

 

R & S were in fact playing Little Major at the 1965 WC's where they were accused of cheating.

I'm so impressed with your research, especially with your specific examples!

 

I will humbly try to do better than "I checked some old records."

 

From Reese's "Story of an Accusation"

 

Boris and I had been close friends and a successful partnership, reckoned among the world's best, for 20 years, but in these trials I played mostly with Flint.  This was because he and I were in the process of developing a highly complicated bidding system called the Little Major and he and I wanted to practice the system together.

 

My interpretation of that statement is that your statement:

 

"...and didn't they play Reese's Little Major system instead of Acol most of the time?"

 

is false.

[jdonn]

R & S were in fact playing Little Major at the 1965 WC's where they were accused of cheating.

That is not only false, but so provably false that I am giggling. Read either Reese or Truscott's book about the accusation and look at all the hands brought forth as evidence by both sides. Show me a single one where RS were playing LM.

[foo]

R & S were in fact playing Little Major at the 1965 WC's where they were accused of cheating.

That is not only false, but so provably false that I am giggling. Read either Reese or Truscott's book about the accusation and look at all the hands brought forth as evidence by both sides. Show me a single one where RS were playing LM.

_The Story of an Accusation_ pages 27-34 documents that R&S were playing LM both in the 1964 Olympiad (p34 "Boris and I played LM against the Americans in the qualifying round...") and at the 1965 Buenos Aires WCs vs the Americans and the Argentines.

 

Those same pages show that Reese was playing it with Flint as well during that same time period.

 

_The Great Bridge Scandal_ p31 John Gerber's account relates details of "the Captain's meeting" where "...there was a battle over (the allowance of) the Little Major system..."

 

Boris didn't =like= it, but he and Reese had been partners for > 20 years at this point and he did not want to lose Reese to Flint. Events @ the 1965 WCs pretty much destroyed their partnership anyway...

 

I'll add more citations to this post as I find them.

 

From one of Reese's Obit's

"Terence devised a highly artificial system, the LITTLE MAJOR, to combat the Marmic, Roman and Monaco employed by the Italians and French."

 

Side Note: Namyats was evidently originally developed for the LM system by Victor Mitchell.

 

PS I'll graciously accept that retraction and apology from either of you anytime you want to offer them. Thanks.

[jdonn]

PS I'll graciously accept that retraction and apology from either of you anytime you want to offer them.  Thanks.

If you would prefer instead I will go home tonight and post every hand including auction from both books that took place during that tournament (there are dozens), not one of which is bid using that system, for everyone to see. Or you can keep including irrelevent quotes that do not prove what you said, about other tournaments, the qualifying rounds, or whether the system was allowed. Your call.

[hrothgar]

_The Story of an Accusation_ pages 27-34 documents that R&S were playing LM both in the 1964 Olympiad (p34 "Boris and I played LM against the Americans in the qualifying round...") and at the 1965 Buenos Aires WCs vs the Americans and the Argentines.

I suspect that folks are confusing the 1964 Bridge Olympiad which took place in New York City and the 1965 Bermuda Bowl that took place in Buenos Aires.

 

The "Little Major" was developed by Reese and Flint. Reese attempted to introduce the Little Major into his partnership with Shapiro, without much luck. Reese made the following comment:

"The happiest of couples can have a rough patch after 20 years, and in our case the Little Major was playing the part of the 'other woman'.  Boris, an intuitive rather than an analytic player, had tried to play the system, but it didn't suit his talents and I tended to become impatient."

 

There is clear documentation available that Reese and Shapiro played the Little Major against the American's at the 1964 Olympiad. For example, on page 13 of "Story of an Accusation" Reese states

 

... when Boris and I played the Little Major against the Americans in the qualifying Round of the 1964 Olympiad ...

 

However, I haven't been unable to find any evidence that Shapiro and Reese playing Little Major in the 1965 Bermuda Bowl. Some of the evidence that you bring forth to support this assertion seems suspect. For example, "Story of an Accusation" describes the experiences of Reese and Flint playing Little Major versus the Argentines during the 1965 Bermuda Bowl. Probably the most damning part of the whole effort is the hand records. "Story of an Accusation" reproduces an enormous number of hand records in which Reese partnered Shapiro. I can't find any examples where they are playing Little Major in Buenos Aires.

 

In part, some of the confusion might be occurring because we're using different editions of the books. I'm using a 1966 Hardcover Edition of "Story of an Accusation".

[Echognome]

Foo - I only asserted that your statement that they played LM most of the time was false. Do you agree it was wrong? Or do you still think you are correct?

[jchiu]

Gnome, you should know better than this. Foo always thinks he is right, no matter how far from the truth his beliefs are. You have been on this forum far too long to be involved in such a lowly case as this ...

[cherdano]

Foo - I only asserted that your statement that they played LM most of the time was false. Do you agree it was wrong? Or do you still think you are correct?

No he disagrees. Yes he still thinks he is correct.

 

I wish all questions on BBF were that easy...

[foo]

Foo - I only asserted that your statement that they played LM most of the time was false.  Do you agree it was wrong?  Or do you still think you are correct?

Sorry for delay in getting back. I had work this evening.

 

As for your question:

1= The only level of play I care about is top flight competition. Random club games, local tournaments, etc are not to a standard nor documented to a standard (espcially back then) for me to feel them to be appropriate consideration.

 

2= There is no doubt that over the ~25 years that R & S played together they played more Acol than anything else.

 

3= To the best of the info I have, and I still need to dredge my attic and other places for my =really= old _Bridge World_'s and World Championship books,

a= Sometime in the very late 1950's Reese began designing Little Major specifically for competing at the highest levels against folks like the Italians.

b= Somewhere around 1961-62 or so (more evidence needed), Reese began playing LM almost exclusively when competing at the highest levels.

From that point on, Reese was certainly playing LM more than anything else in top flight competition. (I do not know or care what he was playing outside top flight competition during that time.)

 

 

My issue with your original attacking post was in your accusation that I had not done enough homework to know what I was talking about. Some of this was admittedly from very fuzzy memory, but both those and the physical sources I claimed to have really do exist. Insinuating that I was somehow "gilding the lily" just because I did not post a citation list along with my statement was more than a bit extreme given that it holds my statements to a higher standard than I've seen anyone else's be held to on these forums.

 

So now I'm dredging up stuff I haven't looked at in decades to address your accusation. And if I have to do =that=, and can do it successfully, someone d@mn well owes me an apology for inequitably holding me to a higher standard of proof than anyone else I've ever seen on these forums be held to.

[hrothgar]

As for your question:

1= The only level of play I care about is top flight competition.  Random club games, local tournaments, etc are not to a standard nor documented to a standard (espcially back then) for me to feel them to be appropriate consideration.

 

2= There is no doubt that over the ~25 years that R & S played together they played more Acol than anything else.

 

3= To the best of the info I have, and I still need to dredge my attic and other places for my =really= old _Bridge World_'s and World Championship books,

a= Sometime in the very late 1950's Reese began designing Little Major specifically for competing at the highest levels against folks like the Italians.

b= Somewhere around 1961-62 or so (more evidence needed), Reese began playing LM almost exclusively when competing at the highest levels.

From that point on, Reese was certainly playing LM more than anything else in top flight competition.  (I do not know or care what he was playing outside top flight competition during that time.)

I think that you are making a pretty basic mistake here:

 

Back in the early 60s, players mixed up their partnerships much more often than they do today. If you read the accounts of early Bermuda Bowls and the like, the team captains exerted significant control on the proceedings and made pairing decisions that are almost unthinkable by modern standards. (Can anyone conceive of ever forcing Meckstroth to partner Hamman, while Rodwell played with Soloway?)

 

You can't really make statements like "Reese began playing the LM almost exclusively when competing at the highest levels". Rather, you need to look at individual partnerships. I have no doubt that Reese preferred partnering Flint and playing the Little Major. However, this discussion is about Reese-Shapiro (a very different kettle of fish). As I understand matters, this partnership ended up abandoning Little Major because Shapiro was temperamentally unsuited towards a highly artifical system.

 

I don't have any copies of the "official" championship book from the Buenes Aires. However, Story of an Accusation reproduces a large number of hands played by Reese and Shapiro. There is lots of evidence that they were playing something other than Little Major.

 

For example:

 

Italy 22, Reese opened 1♦ on ♠ K2 ♥ KQJ6 ♦ K9864 ♣ Q2

Italy 23, Shapiro opened 1♦ on ♠ K32 ♥ KJ ♦ AT76 ♣ KT72

Italy 25, Reese open 1♠ on ♠AKJT2 ♥ Q972 ♦ 76 ♣ 43

Argentina 44, Shapiro open 1♣ on ♠A954 ♥ - ♦ KJ2 ♣ AJT983

 

I can go through the rest of the examples...

 

My issue with your original attacking post was in your accusation that I had not done enough homework to know what I was talking about. Some of this was admittedly from very fuzzy memory, but both those and the physical sources I claimed to have really do exist. Insinuating that I was somehow "gilding the lily" just because I did not post a citation list along with my statement was more than a bit extreme given that it holds my statements to a higher standard than I've seen anyone else's be held to on these forums.

 

I don't think that anyone has commented on the amount of work that you have invested. There have been a number of (valid) criticisms about the accuracy of your results.

 

You have a tendency to make some extremely definitive pronouncements in areas that are - to say the least - subject to debate. If you're going to do this, folks are gonna start calling you out when you make mistakes.

[jdonn]

There is lots of evidence that they were playing something other than Little Major.

 

For example:

 

Italy 22, Reese opened 1♦ on ♠ K2 ♥ KQJ6 ♦ K9864 ♣ Q2

Italy 23, Shapiro opened 1♦ on ♠ K32 ♥ KJ ♦ AT76 ♣ KT72

Italy 25, Reese open 1♠ on ♠AKJT2 ♥ Q972 ♦ 76 ♣ 43

Argentina 44, Shapiro open 1♣ on ♠A954 ♥ - ♦ KJ2 ♣ AJT983

Just for reference, the opening bids in the little major system are

 

1♣ = hearts

1♦ = spades

1♥ = strong (similar to precision 1♣)

1♠ = minor

 

That's from my memory from a short summary I have at home but I'm pretty sure it's accurate, if not those resourceful among us will correct me. So these hands certainly do prove that this partnership was not playing that system at that tournament.

[Echognome]

Foo - We probably just see things differently. Here's my interpretation of our exchange:

 

Foo - Didn't Reese and Shapiro play LM most of the time?

Me - No.

Foo - Well I have looked up old hand records saying they did.

Me - I say BS. And look here... I'm actually providing a reference.

Foo - I'm offended you attacked me!

[foo]

Foo - We probably just see things differently.  Here's my interpretation of our exchange:

 

Foo - Didn't Reese and Shapiro play LM most of the time?

Me - No.

Foo - Well I have looked up old hand records saying they did.

Me - I say BS.  And look here... I'm actually providing a reference.

Foo - I'm offended you attacked me!

Pardon, I am on short break and do not have much time for a detailed exchange.

 

Your interpretation is more than a bit mistaken.

 

You provided a reference after accusing me of somehow being misleading. I've countered by providing =references=, and I'm continuing to dig for more.

 

As I've stated before, if you had questioned rather than accused, I'd be far more willing for this to be a simple mutual search for the truth. After all, my memories are certainly not infallible, and I've never claimed they were.

 

However, you did not question. You did accuse. That makes this an adversarial debate rather than a discussion. I also note that since then, I've seen no evidence that anyone else in this thread is putting together an exhaustive list of the use of Little Major in top flight competition.

 

That, of course, is the only definitive way to answer the accusation: to create an exhaustive list of the use of Little Major in competition and so be able to objectively count how often R&S used it compared to using Acol after it had been invented.

(This necessarily requires that "competition" be defined as "top flight competition" since that is all we can reasonably expect to find documentation for. Also, that is the express purpose Reese claimed to have created LM for.)

 

...and being Bridge players, both context and inference matter to most conversations B)

Since clearly it would have been impossible for R&S to play LM before LM existed,

neither

a= claims that R&S played LM more than Acol before LM existed, nor

b= that R&S played LM more than they Acol over the entirety of their ~25 years as a partnership

could possibly be what I claimed. Nor what you are contesting.

 

If you think I did claim either "a" or "b", then you were mistaken and I was evidently unclear. In that case, I'll happily concede that there has been a misunderstanding and that =of course= neither "a" nor "b" could possibly be true.

 

Then we can cease this sub thread that high-jacked the main topic and I'll be spared a considerable amount of work.

[hrothgar]

That, of course, is the only definitive way to answer the accusation: to create an exhaustive list of the use of Little Major in competition and so be able to objectively count how often R&S used it compared to using Acol after it had been invented.

(This necessarily requires that "competition" be defined as "top flight competition" since that is all we can reasonably expect to find documentation for.  Also, that is the express purpose Reese claimed to have created LM for.)

If I might be so bold as to offer a suggestion: Why don't you focus on the 1965 match in Buenos Aires rather than doing an exhaustive search of all hand records from the 1960s. I (for one) am happy to admit that Reese and Shapiro played Little Major in international competition. I even provided quotes from Story of an Accusation in which Reese states that he and Shapiro played Little Major during 1964 matches in New York.

 

I suspect that the crux of the current disagreement revolves around the the following statement that you made.

 

R & S were in fact playing Little Major at the 1965 WC's where they were accused of cheating.

 

Simply providing some kind of validation behind this comment would be a most welcome start (and, presumably, substantially decrease your work load)

 

Admittedly, you also said

 

...and didn't they play Reese's Little Major system instead of Acol most of the time?

which seems highly dubious. However, I really don't see the point in following you down a rat hole in which you attempt to conclusively prove that Reese _ Shapiro played Little Major "most of the time" between the February 29th 1963 and July 23rd, 1964.... Much as I might enjoy the thought of you wasting your time attempting to win that oh-so-crucial battle, it seems a little childish put you through such a bother over what is ultimately an exercise in symantics.

[DenisO]

Just looking at the 1965 WC book - pages 13 and 14 where the Great Britain systems are described.

 

The Little Major (Reese - Flint) - THREE complete columns are devoted to the description.

 

Acol System (Played by all partnerships except Reese - Flint) - this gets about a quarter column.