Signoff or looking for a magical slam?

[Free]

You hold:

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skqtxhkxxdtxxcaqx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Partner starts the auction, opponents quiet (playing a standard system, 5 card Majors):

1♥ - 1♠

2♣ - ?

 

What's your plan? Signoff, or do you think slam is possible if partner has a 3-5-1-4 distribution?

[hrothgar]

Slam may be possible, but I'm not sure that its probable. In particular, I think that the odds that partner has a "miracle" 4=5=1=3 hand pretty slim. (Many of the hands that would make slam would raise 1♠ to 2♠)

 

I suspect that if we do have a slam, it requires that partner table a 2=5=1=5. Perhaps

 

♠ Ax

♥ AQxxx

♦ x

♣ Kxxxx

 

or some variant there of...

 

I would (probably) bid 4♥ and be prepared to apologize if I was wrong.

[kenrexford]

It really does not seem all that magical to me, frankly. Something like a rather mundane ♠Axx ♥KQxxx ♦x ♣KJxx provides us with twelve easily.

 

I'm not all that keen on the start (1♠), but this seems like an easy follow-up. I bid 2♦ (GF, I assume) and hope to hear 2♠. If I hear that, I hopefully can set hearts as trumps (3♥). Partner, if he has the spade Ace, can cue that. I then can make come sort of noise that convinced partner, or have partner make some noise, whatever methods we use.

[Guest Jlall]

I'm with ken, you don't need much for this one. I would bid 2D. On top of minimums with short diamonds partner might have some 16 or 17 count that can make slam and will pass if you jump to 4H (which might be something like KJxxxx Axxx xx x).

[david_c]

2♦. How can this be wrong?

[jdonn]

Seems obvious to bid 2♦. If the auction continued 2NT 3♥ 3NT then I might also reach a better game.

[pbleighton]

I would bid 2D, to cater to 5-5 hands. If pd doesn't rebid 3C, or otherwise grab my attention, I will then bid 4H.

 

I don't think a direct 4H is bad, though.

 

Peter

[Fluffy]

Ken, you are missing ♦A+♥A on that magic 'mundane' hands :), ok the duplication of ♥K saves the day when director cancels the hand :rolleyes:

 

I'd just bid 4♥.

 

After 2♦ partner will raise us with 2524, what will we do next?, 4♥?, doesn't that mean that we didn't like the 2♠ response?

[mcphee]

2D strikes me as 100%, you meet the requirements, a reasonable opening bid, control cards, and good cards in partners suit. Failing to use 4th suit here I think starts partners making suspect j/s when 5/5, a condition I do not care to promote. Lets just TELL what we have and do not make decisions which are not ours to make.

[Free]

Ok, so I bid 2♦, partner responds 2♠ (he's an overall great player, but tends not to support on 3 card M). Now what?

 

Extra hidden info about the rest of the auction (so I don't have to make 7 posts asking you guys new questions every time):

 

 

If you bid 3♥ now, partner will cuebid 3♠

 

 

[P_Marlowe]

Ok, so I bid 2♦, partner responds 2♠ (he's an overall great player, but tends not to support on 3 card M). Now what?

 

Extra hidden info about the rest of the auction (so I don't have to make 7 posts asking you guys new questions every time):

 

 

If you bid 3♥ now, partner will cuebid 3♠

 

Hi,

 

3H, no problem yet.

 

After 3S, bid 3NT (serious), hoping

to catch a 4C cue bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pbleighton]

Ok, so I bid 2D, partner responds 2♠ (he's an overall great player, but tends not to support on 3 card M). Now what?

 

4H.

 

Peter

[jdonn]

Ok, so I bid 2♦, partner responds 2♠ (he's an overall great player, but tends not to support on 3 card M).  Now what?

 

Extra hidden info about the rest of the auction (so I don't have to make 7 posts asking you guys new questions every time):

 

 

If you bid 3♥ now, partner will cuebid 3♠

 

Easy 3♥, just set trumps and see what he does. Further answer hidden.

 

 

 

Over his 3♠ I bid 4♣. I am now done cooperating and any further move is up to partner.

Edit I change my mind, over 4♦ I would bid blackwood, I think that is enough for my hand where every card is working.

 

 

[Codo]

2 ♦/3♥ was easy.

 

After a possible 3 Spade bid from pd I would bid 4 ♣. I have Si, but they are not too serious.

If pd is going on fine, if he stops in 4, this is nice too.

 

Oh by the way:

 

1 ♥ 1 ♠ 2 ♣ 2 ♦ 2 ♠ 3 ♥ 3 ♠ 4 ♣:

 

Is 4 ♦ now last train?

 

If it is not, what should it be?

[mike777]

2 ♦/3♥ was easy.

 

After a possible 3 Spade bid from pd I would bid 4 ♣. I have Si, but they are not too serious.

If pd is going on fine, if he stops in 4, this is nice too.

 

Oh by the way:

 

1 ♥ 1 ♠ 2 ♣ 2 ♦ 2 ♠ 3 ♥ 3 ♠ 4 ♣:

 

Is 4 ♦ now last train?

 

If it is not, what should it be?

why is 2d and then 3h easy? compared to 2d and then 4H? you may very well be correct but you cite nothing.

 

Easy is means easy....what do you mean?

 

again you may be correct but easy, I think not! Correct bidding and easy bidding are not the same, ok?

[Free]

Well, we didn't agree on last train, so I thought partner would bid 4♥ after 4♣ anyway, a waste of time. I just used blacky, partner showed 1 keycard, RHO doubled and I bid 5♥. Partner had the magical ♦K stiff, a real waste of values, and he needed to find ♥J for contract without any clues at all... The other table just played 4♥=, we went down 1.

[Fluffy]

Well, we didn't agree on last train, so I thought partner would bid 4♥ after 4♣ anyway, a waste of time. I just used blacky, partner showed 1 keycard, RHO doubled and I bid 5♥. Partner had the magical ♦K stiff, a real waste of values, and he needed to find ♥J for contract without any clues at all... The other table just played 4♥=, we went down 1.

After you bid 2♦, 3♥ then 4♣ wich are your strongest unlimmited bids I'd say he will feel forced to bid 4♦ over 4♣.

[Codo]

again you may be correct but easy, I think not! Correct bidding and easy bidding are not the same, ok?

You are right and with a pick up pd or without discussion it is far far away from easy to bid 3 ♥.

So it had been easy in my well established partnership where it is a clear game force with at least mildly slam interesst, but it would be quite different opposite a stranger.

In this case and wihtout having ser/ non ser. 3NT avaiable, I would prefer 4 ♥ to 3 ♥ because I believe that this shows a hand with just marginal slam interesst.

[whereagles]

Free: problem was pard wasn't able to say whether he had a max or a min. If you're not playing stuff like serious/frivolous 3NT, you better just sign off in 4♥.

[foo]

Free: problem was pard wasn't able to say whether he had a max or a min. If you're not playing stuff like serious/frivolous 3NT, you better just sign off in 4♥.

Josh, Justin, and Ken are dead on right for this one.

 

♠KQTx♥Kxx♦Txx♣AQx

 

1H-1S;2C-??

 

It's not just how much Opener has, it's how well the hands fit.

Even if you are playing with a pickup, a good pick up is instinctively going to know Barry Crane's old adage: "The more you bid, the more you got."

 

2D 4SF;

2S "No I don't have a D stop (else NT); nor a long empty D suit. (else 3D)"

(Something like Ken's example of Axx.AQxxx.x.KJxx starts looking more likely.)

 

3H "I waited until now to tell you I have H support";

3S "Oh _really_? Righty then. Here's the ♠A."

4C "I've the ♣A.";

 

Frankly, at this point if Opener has a ♦ stiff or void, the auction should be making them quite excited. After all, your bidding thus far has implied good ♠'s and extra values.

With something like Axx.AQxxx.x.KJxx, or even Axx.Axxxx.x.KJxx, 1430 should probably be their next call.

 

Unlike another poster, given Opener's earlier answer to 4SF, I'd take Opener next bidding 4D as a =negative= bid, implying 2+ losers in ♦'s.

Given the context of the previous auction, if Opener bids 4D next, you should probably sign off in 4H.

[kenrexford]

At the point where Opener has bid 3♠, we expect Opener to have 3514 shape. Imagining the worst possible LTC hand, perhaps he can have ♠AJx ♥QJxxx ♦Q ♣Jxxx? That's pretty lousy as an opener (not inconceivable for some partners), a full 8 losers. But, with that hand, he'd surely bid 4♥ hoping to stop the bleeding.

 

With a basic seven-loser hand, partner would probably cuebid cooperatively, as you are unlimited. Your hand has an assured five covers, meaning that you are safe at the five-level and that you should be seriously interested, if it is tactically wise to be serious.

 

The focus suit of most problem here is clearly not hearts -- whoever kicks in with RKCB will know the answer to that problem. The problem is either with spades or clubs, it seems, and only partially so for spades. Spades is not a problem suit for you, as you know the suit is solid. However, spades will be a problem suit for partner, if he asks.

 

Clubs is a problem suit for both sides. Partner cannot know from any obvious cuebid that you have both key cards in his obviously broken suit. Plus, whether you use Aces-first cuebidding (partner lacks the club Ace) or more modern cuebidding (partner lacks two top cards in his own suit), partner cannot cuebid clubs himself. So, if you bid 3NT, he should not cue 4♣. If you cue 4♣, he will not know about the club Queen.

 

So, how to resolve this?

 

One fair option is to have Responder cuebid 4♣. This has two variations. First, if Opener's 4♦ call is Last Train, you accept. If 4♦ would be a void cue, Opener will bid 4♥, and Responder makes one last stab with 4♠ (if 4♠ is a cue here).

 

A second option is for Responder to use Serious 3NT, and then leave the auction. Serious interest must feature five covers. If Opener does not bite himself, then something is terrible wrong, and I'm out.

 

Which is best? The problem with Serious 3NT, IMO, is that you are allowed to have a trick source in diamonds for this call. The problem for me with 4♣...4♠ would be a strange RKCB, asking for Aces RKCB-style but with the spade king and queen being the other "key cards." (Typically done if Responder has the K-Q of hearts himself but needs to know about a missing spade honor.) However, for others, this might be the best auction. (I also think Fred might play that 4♠ asks Opener to do the asking, which would similarly kill this option.)

 

For me, then, it seems that the best auction is 4♣ by Responder, planning to accept if Opener bids 4♦, which I would take as Last Train.

[foo]

...Imagining the worst possible LTC hand, perhaps he can have ♠AJx♥QJxxx♦Q ♣Jxxx? That's pretty lousy as an opener (not inconceivable for some partners)...

What a slice of Velveeta (it's not even real cheese).

 

Anyone who opens this opposite you deserves the name "Center Hand Opponent."

 

If your partners do this to you on a regular basis, either

a= you're a teacher playing with novices, or

b= you're a pro playing with clients who are weak players, or

c= you need a better partner.

[foo]

Ken, Agreements like Last Train and Serious/Frivolous 3N are not something you can assume with partners. Certainly not outside a fairly serious partnership.

 

IHMO, you are stuck here using KISS.

 

1H-1S;2C-2D;2S pretty much says that Opener either has

a= D shortness or

b= 2-3 small [d]'s

and 3 card ♠ support.

 

Now

-3H;3S (Cooperating! Yay!) -4C;

IMHO pretty much nails down that Responder has nice ♠'s and that ♦'s is very likely the problem suit.

(If Responder had primary ♦'s, the auction would have been different.)

 

With a ♦ stiff or void, Opener knows not to be worried.

With 2-3 small ♦'s Opener knows to be plenty worried.

 

If Opener bids 4♥, that's kind of unilateral and sounds like a Sign Off.

4♦ strikes me as the natural, "I want to cooperate further, but here's The Problem from my POV" bid.

You don't have that option if 4♦ is Last Train (to Clarksville).

[mikeh]

Late to the thread, but the more recent posts leave me scratching my head.

 

1♥ 1♠ 2♣:

 

2♦ is 100% clear. Bidding 4♥ is giving up on bidding intelligently. Partner will not usually hold the hand for slam, but why not at least make some effort to find, for example, Axx AQxxx x KJxx.

 

2♠ by partner is often 3=5=1=4, but need not be. With, as an example, AJ Axxxx xx KJxx, I think you'd get a lot of support for a 2♠ bid in the expert community. 2♦ really is shorthand for: we are going to game, and my next call will identify my idea of the most likely strain. So opener's task is to make the cheapest descriptive bid, recognizing that some hands create problems.

 

Responder now carries through with the identification of strain via 3♥. This is a MILDLY slammish move... but it does not promise a huge hand (nor does it deny one).

 

Opener's 3♠ should now be a cue, over which we have an easy 4♣ bid.

 

There are differing schools of thought on the strength shown by a below-game cue bid. This is especially true in partnerships that do not use any variant of serious 3N or last train. Some (me included in such partnerships) believe that cues below game promise a hand with some (mild or better) interest: really horrible hands don't cue below game. Thus, for me, 3♠ denies a godawful hand, while not promising a big hand.

 

This means that 4♦ by opener continues to show interest: ie, opener has not bid himself out. I suspect that a holding of stiff K in ♦s and only 1 key card would mean that I, for one, would not dream of cue-bidding 4♦. I would bid 4♥, knowing that I had already shown a modicum of interest, via my 3♠ call.

 

Even if we play mandatory (or almost mandatory) cue-bidding below game, surely no real player would bid 4♦ (which could well be a first round control since opener has not bypassed the suit earlier) with a bad (in context) hand.. which he clearly had?

 

Over 4♦, if it was last train, we bid 4♥: we have already made two slam moves... the first by our 4SF then 3♥ sequence and the second by our 4♣ cue.

 

If 4♦ was not last train, but a real cue.. then my hand is golden, and I'd cue 4♠... I wouldn't keycard, but I recognize that I probably use keycard less than most.

 

I think the problem with the real-life auction was that opener didn't know when to shut up... 4♥ over 4♣ is not a weakness bid... it is simply a denial of sufficient values to warrant a second try for slam opposite a responder who has shown, so far, only mild interest. If responder has a big hand (say an extra keycard), then he will not pass the signoff, and slam will not be missed.

[Fluffy]

Responder now carries through with the identification of strain via 3♥. This is a MILDLY slammish move... but it does not promise a huge hand (nor does it deny one).

If this is MILDLY, what is 4♥?