Guest Jlall Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 As a junior player, i have tried to get other people interested in the game that are my age, but generally fail. People find the game too complicated, for insance when they ask me a simple question like how do you win even that is complicated. I know there are quite a few, bad, but interested young players that play on sites like yahoo etc. Maybe there is some way we could tap into that and get them playing club games? The internet is the best way to get young people involved, and without them the game will eventually die, and that would be quite a shame. I was wondering if anyone had ideas on how to get young people playing online or in real life, because it seems like they are more interested in other things. Alot of people dont even know what bridge is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 I have 2 words... Anna Kournikova (I am immune but most men aren't !) R. Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 LOL!!! :))) im not immune :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 OK Free, if you wish to pass her on to me, thats fine by me!!Wif might object though :) , I guess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Hey!!! My post is gone. Guess I saw that one comming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Oh come on Ben, that was a totally harmless post which would not have offended anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 It's sad, but what you gonna do? My "warn level" is now 10%, very unrepresentative if you look at my other 400 posts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Que????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I think it's sad to see no response to Justin's question. Although in most countries the situation is better than in the USA, this is a real problem. I know for a fact that kids are interested in board and card games. Magic is still extremely popular, and you can't say that isn't complicated... If you come to a Settlers of Catan tournament there are many kids playing that as well. It's not that bridge is complicated. Somehow they are willing to follow a 10 x 1 hour course on chess but not on bridge. How come? Because in bridge club they play against players who are 50 years older and in chess they don't... If only more people knew about the junior tournaments and junior camps that would be a good start. For the USA, I can imagine that yearly state-wide junior championships could be played. The level of play would be a very wide range from beginners to those with international experience, and there won't be 20 tables either, but the point is not to have winners but to have a competition where everyone can enter. On the internet one could do the same. Perhaps we should make a BBO junior club that organizes tournaments for those under 25 only. I know that there are many many juniors playing on BBO, getting them together might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I thnk one reason is that playing bridge you need to find one pd and two opps. But playing chess you just need to find a pd. you can play chess at home, with your dad or mum, but you cant play chess, coz you need dad, mum and another one to play. second, bridge is a team game, without good pd you will find it very frustrating. But winnining chess is entirely your own business. What can we do? I think free online playing and perhaps offer bridge lessons in primary and high school will help a lot. One of my plan is to run a bridge lecture in univ campus after I finsish my degree:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Censoring? That's a bad thing, too bad indeed. What did you post free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Freee posted ithat was deleted was here (the one Ron was obviously responding too). I judged the content a) had nothing to do with bridge, and B ) violated at tje very least several of the rules of this site. The very first rule of thie site is... "1 You will not engage in conduct or post any material that is defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law as it relates to being potential offensive." followed by "The board should never go above PG-rated for any reason." While the general topic was funny, Free's post stepped over the bounds. It would at least be offensive and "hateful" to Ms. Kournikova (should she ever read the post here). And it already begun to generate responses on the topic (see Ron's reply to his Free's post, which I did not delete), and one can imagine someone googling Kournikova, finding this post, and joining the "fun" of posting here about here anatomy as Free did, we could have a 100 post on that topic very quickly no doubt. Also, I point out that Freee himself when noting that his post was deleted, said Guess I saw that one comming... " implying that he knew he was skating on thin ice with regard to the rules when he posted it, and indeed he not only was not surprised it was deleted, as he noted, he should not have been surprised. As a general rule, I would have either asked the poster to edit out the offensive material or edited it out the offensive material myself and sent an explaination of why to the poster...but... if any editing of the post in question to remove the questionable content would have left nothing remaining in the post. Ron is aware of this because I have asked him to change wording once, and then there was a humerous off-color joke in a thread about being forced into a tournment that you didn't sign up for that got administratively changed by uday I believe. Thus, I deleted the post. Censorship? Well, certainly. Was his comments above the level of PG? No, as far as sexually explicit comments go, this was relatively tame. But they failed my "comfort test"... which is would I read them out loud to my 12 year old niece, the answer is no, I would not. Also, his post had nothing to do with bridge, and was found offensive by at least one member who contacted me, and I agreed that it was at least potentially offensive. I will gladly give up my moderator status if the community thinks that deleting a post describing the anatomy of female tennis player (or bridge player) which also contained no bridge related material was was too heavy handed... but as long as I have this resposnbility, I will interpret the rules of the site in a similar manner, and treat similar content in the same manner (deleting entire post, or editing out pontially offensive content). Free could have expressed his views in other manners.. he could have said, she isn't that hot, I would prefer..hallay berry or britney spears, or name a person... there was no need to express the view as he did. Also, should anyone start a thread like the hottest 10 "female bridge players" like ran on the rgb, I will delete the entire thread, and to be honest, several of the posters if they followed the content of rgb would find themselves barred from this site at least temporarily. Now for issued raised in response to the deleting of Freee's post. First, the 10% warn level. Hey, it is a new toy on the improved forum so I got a chance to use it. Each user sees a "warn level" when they look at their own post, but no warn level when looking at someone elses. So if Free hadn't said his was at 10%, only he and the system administrators and I would have known that he has been warned at all. Free and one other person to the best of my knowledge are the only people with warns that are not 0%. I don't like the word "warn", I wish it would have said "REMINDER". By issusing a "warning" I meant it as a reminder to Freee about the rules of the site. If he clicks on the "10%" that is underscored, he can read why his warning level (really, a reminder) was increased. There is no option to increase it in any steps but by 10%, so the number of post is not really relevant. Now to Ron and Luis who find the censorship as a bad thing... Ron because noone could find it offensive, and Luis general censorship is a bad thing. Ron, demonstratably at least one person found it offensive because they contact me about it and I agreed it was at least potentially offensive, and violated the the rules of the site. Note, I did not delete your reply, nor the original "joke" about adding her to bridge. And as I noted above, there would be plenty of ways Freee could have taken exception with using her (instead of someone else) that would not been nearly as potentially offensive. To Luis, I think it is clear that this board was set up with the intent to discuss bridge and to allow the CENSORSHIP of post that are here. For instance, the rules state that "If you should come across inappropriate content for whatever reason please send a message to one of the administrators. We will take care of it as soon as we can." Which is just what happened in this case. IF either of you would like to replace me and handle decisions like is this or that potential offensive to a community made of people of all ages, a hundred nationalities, a wide range of relidions and cultural norms, and both sexes, I think that could be arranged. Evil Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Completely appropriate to remove posts that don't belong here. Thanks Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 First of all some non-bridge 100% joke from time to time is not going to hurt, specially when the thread is more about society and bridge or bridge for youngsters than techincal bridge itself. Second Anna K is not someone that should be protected by moderators and so since she lives from his image and jokes and comments about her are exactly what she looks for to get more publicity contracts. I agree with the rules for this phorum and I agree with moderating posts, I just disagree with the deletion of posts that are meant to be funny. You can just use #### in the "offending" or "non PG" parts of the message, no need to remove the whole post and warn the poster. Post edited by moderator or something is enough... I think. On the other hand if you Ben decided that the best action was to remove the post I think that you have my vote of confidence and I'm sure your action was the best way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 We don't necc. need young people; we just need people who are young enough. Wouldnt a healthy infusion of 40-year olds (or, 50 year olds, for that matter) do us good ? I happen to think that one/all of the "big" bridge organizations owes us more of an effort that we can see now. Online bridge should be treated as a good way to suck people in, not just as a way to try and score some revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I have one particular opinion about bridge and young people, I think that the best way to introduce kids to bridge is in the schools.I found incredible that chess is tought at many schools while bridge is not. A partnership game like bridge is far better and I think it helps developing a lot of useful skills in children like counting, making inferences, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 To say the last about the deletion of my post:According to the rules, it was a bit naughty, and the post had nothing to do with bridge. The point was that A.K. isn't extremely pretty imo, but I became too specific, even when using ** to mask some vowels in the word. Anyway, I understand it's deleted, I understand it might have been over the edge, but it was meant funny and not to make A.K. feel like an ugly 'something' when she would read my post. And Ben, you could easily edit my post and put something like "She's not very pretty imo" or something similar. But ok, you didn't. So enough said about it, lets go back to the topic! About the topic:I'm a young player myself (23 years old/young) and I play for about 8 years already. I must admit that I know nobody who started to play bridge at a younger age than me. And if I talk about bridge with my friends, the general opinion is "Bridge if for old people", "Bridge is boooooooring",... Ofcourse they never played it so they can't know, but this just is the general opinion. So nobody is interested to learn it when they're young.On the other hand, we do have some bridgeclubs near university's, and they are very popular. Why? I have no idea, but it works. If you have some people who want to put energy in creating a bridgeclub in a city where there are lots of young people, they'll get results. To learn children of 12-18 years is very difficult imo, but from 18+ it is doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Free:18 whaaaat???Children can start learning bridge at 6. At the age of 11/12 they can play normal tournaments with a good int/adv level and can reach expert level by the age of 14/15 same as in chess but harder because some extra skills are needed.If you start teaching mini-bridge at schools children interested can then move on to bridge as a sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Free, I am glad you realize the deleted post was naughty, might be over the edge, and why it was deleted. And yes, I could have easily "edited" your post, but I take editing post very seriously. The reason is if I change your words, others will think the words that show up are your words that you wrote. Thus, I tend to edit by DELETING, not by putting new words in your mouth (well at the tips of your fingers). The only time I have changed words others wrote is when they describe a bridge play or action and list an opponent or director by name that then attack. If the point being made is reasonable, and can be addressed without naming the person involved, I simply delete the name of the person being identified....For instance if someone wrote.... "I was playing against inquiry when he psyched a strong openign 2 bid with a weak hand. Isn't this illegal, what a jerk".... I would automatically change that to (for anyplayer named, not just me).... "I was playing against an opponent when he... " I have made such changes, and notified the original poster of why, and suggested that a better way to address the action of a person is through abuse@bridgebase.com not in this public forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Free:18 whaaaat???Children can start learning bridge at 6. At the age of 11/12 they can play normal tournaments with a good int/adv level and can reach expert level by the age of 14/15 same as in chess but harder because some extra skills are needed.If you start teaching mini-bridge at schools children interested can then move on to bridge as a sport. Maybe I put it wrong, I know you can teach children bridge, but to motivate them will be difficult imo!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I think bridge doesn't suit all temperements. Most children/youths will be at a point in life where more physically energetic activities appeal. I've observed my friends' preferences over the years. Girls <18 or so and Guys up till 25 mostly cannot seem to sit still to even concentrate 1 hour on reading. How to bridge? :lol: That being said, not everyone is like that. Its just temperement...imo. Oh, and what type of course were you thinking of? http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~cs1305/info/ See this, singapore university offering bridge-computer course ! You'd think it'd be a most popular course anyway, but bidding 1 point gets you in. (Bidding system to get your course in this university). So what I'm saying is, bridge is offered as a real course to youths in singapore anyway. But we have far far far less players % wise than most other countries. And so far our skill level is horrible :P I'm not sure about people not bridging. I can assure you I do know a form of bridge when I was very young..its called "floating bridge" and you take tricks and all, but partner isn't fixed. The winner of bid gets to name a partner by asking for a card partner may hold. Most of my friends know this form of bridge, yet they still are shocked and amazed whenever I tell them I LOVE contract bridge. They all feel there are better/more worthwhile/more engaging activities than bridge. Will friends' attitude shift as we all mature more? That is my theory...of course, no way to prove that fast...... I think the best way right now to address the "perception" problem is really a puff type of method--marketing.... I hate marketing. It preys on psychology and you feel like such a hypocritical predator after, but it works and satisfies and gratifies. If a pop icon adored by many fans were to suddenly declare "Bridge is kewl!" bridge *will* be cool, till the next big ad campaign. If harry potter plays bridge, you'll get your young kiddy bridge players. It hurts me to see people being manipulated, so I don't like the idea as much as I should have, but....... R. Dog (add: I just saw free's post. Agree 100%. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 My last comment re Free's post:I realise Americans are far more conservative than us "Old Europeans", (thanks Rumsfeld, love that phrase!),when it comes to issues of morality, but for anyone to take any offence is unbelievable imho, and Ben, I would have no hesitation in showing that to my 12 yo niece. However Ben, afaiak you can keep your role - I don't have the time nor the inclination to moderate. Now the "Dying Bridge" question. Bridge is not dying in all countries; Australia eg has an increasing membership. Part of the trouble in the US is that idiotic system regulations discourage the type of experimentation so beloved by youth players. YP do not want to play in an artificially cosseted environment designed to protect the interests of the rich - read sponsor here - , the intellectually lazy and the geriatrics who now control Bridge administration in the US. Wolff has a lot to answer for for his past pecadilloes in administration. The conservative fort is being maintained now by Meckstroth and his ilk, who go out of their way to protect the interests of sponsors. The best way to encourage young players to take up the game is to: 1) educate ins schools - as has already been pointed out2) Lighten up system regulations to allow experimentation3) Simplify the inconsistent and sometimes over litigious rules of the game4) Promote more on line bridge, particularly stressing the international flavour of that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Sorry i should have specified that i meant mainly bridge is dying in USA, and also going downhill in other areas. Im aware in places like denmark and australia etc that it is not :lol: As for lightening up system regulations, wouldn't that discourage newcomers to the game? They will be forced to contend against many bids they wont understand, and as a result might quit. I do not see why allowing MORE systems would help membership Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Hi I am a regional youth officer for the development of Bridge in England. It is a voluntary post.i only do it in my spare time because I have to earn a living! I have been involved in developing youth bridge for 4 years. I am 27 now and decided to get involved while I was still young and the kids could still relate to me. I am also a former U25 International, and I made no secret of this fact because the fact that I represented my country made it cool - a game which we all accept has an image problem amongst the young. I would certainly advocate players of similar status to get involved and gove something back to the game that has given so much. There are many problems I encounter in England. Teaching in schools is preferable - I learnt at school, played for my school and so on. But I was lucky because I had a teacher who played and gave her time. There aren't bridge playing teachers in every school, and increasing curiculum workloads mean they have less and less time to give. Some are unwilling to do so. It would seem therefore that the solution is to get outsiders to go in, but schools don't like strangers with their children. I have to have a police background check in order to do my job because I am working with children. Child-abuse is a very hot political subject in England at the moment. So I have to look for teachers in the schools who play and are willing or people to go in from outside who the schools trust and have the relevant clearances. This is before we even get to the children. Yes, there is an image problem. That was why I got involved. To show we aren't all old and decrepit! Also because when I was at school there were potentially 30-40 really good juniors (I mean really good!). The local county association wasted that talent to the extent that only three of us are still playing in any way. I resolved never to let that happen again, so that any juniors I could help wouldn't be lost to the game through the incompetence of the powers that be. It would be of their own choice. The fact remains that it is very difficult to hold the attention of the youngsters when in 30 seconds they can be doing all manner of exciting things on a Playstation. This situation will only get worse. To counter this, perhaps Bill Gates could bundle Bridge software with every copy of Windows he sells. He can afford it. I know he likes the game. And how many players (especially youngsters)would have their curiosity aroused by it. GO ON BILL. DO IT! The one mantra I hold when doing this is that it must be fun. Take away the enjoyment of playing - surely the raison d'etre in the first place - and no-one will want to play. Junior Bridge was the most fun I ever had in the game with the most fun people and I want to ensure it stays that way. Juniors are noisy, sometimes go too far, but there is never any malice. And they play harder and fairer than the average adult. I have never heard of a junior cheating scandal and I doubt I ever will. Yet in many bridge clubs you can visibly see the Old Age Pensioners curling up their toes at the sight of them. The generation gap rears its ugly head. Yes, as I said it sometimes goes to far and a quiet word after the event doesn't go amiss. I had a couple and it never did me any harm. Is it so hard to co-exist? The junior scene in this country is held together by a handful of hard-working people who give freely of their time, who do a stunning job within the stark limitations of their resources. Its sad, but true. But I won't stop trying to spread my love of the game to those who will follow me. Alan Shillitoe alan_shillitoe@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Now the "Dying Bridge" question. Bridge is not dying in all countries; Australia eg has an increasing membership. Part of the trouble in the US is that idiotic system regulations discourage the type of experimentation so beloved by youth players. YP do not want to play in an artificially cosseted environment designed to protect the interests of the rich - read sponsor here - , the intellectually lazy and the geriatrics who now control Bridge administration in the US. Wolff has a lot to answer for for his past pecadilloes in administration. The conservative fort is being maintained now by Meckstroth and his ilk, who go out of their way to protect the interests of sponsors. I don't think it is appropriate for you to publicly accuse playerslike Meckstroth and Wolff (or anyone else for that matter) of having less than pure intentions unless you are able to present evidence to back up your claims. What makes you think you know what makes these guys tick? Just because the views of these people as far as system regulationgo disagree with yours, it doesn't mean that you are *right* orthat the others are evil in some way. I happen to agree (strongly) with the views about systems regulationsof the great players you mention. I know for me this has nothing to do with sponsors. Also, I am close friends with Meckstroth and I have every reason to believe that his views are motivated by what he thinks is "good for bridge". I am close not enough with Wolff to be ableto vouch for him personally - perhaps you know him better than I do. I do know that these 2 superstars have given a great deal of theirtime and energy over the years to try to help make bridge a bettergame for everyone. Of course it is your right to disagree with whatthey have done, but I don't think it shows much class to attack theirintegrity the way that you did. I also think you are completely wrong when you claim that easingup system restrictions would have a significant positive impact on the number of young people playing bridge. The trick is getting a lot of young people to try bridge, somethingthat is not happening now. If we can do that, the game will sellitself to many of these (because it is a great game regardless ofwhat systems are allowed). It is absurd to suggest that a 16-year old who knows nothingabout bridge won't try the game because he is told that certainconventions are not allowed in his club (after all, he knowsnothing about bridge). In a few months when he (wrongly)thinks he is ready to play some crazy system of his owndevising, the fact that he is prevented from doing so *might*get him to quit bridge. Then again, some young people may bedriven away from bridge if they thought there were too manyconventions to learn to defend against. My opinion is that the vast majority of people who get hookedon bridge will remain hooked regardless of what systemrestrictions are in effect. What we have to do is get morepeople hooked to begin with. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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