Pre-emptive bids

[firmit]

As some of you might have gathered - I am trying to put together a system. I have posted several questions lately about some fundamental questions regarding the NT structure, and gotton many good answers!

 

Still - a strong club context with 4-5 card major - that's right: min 4, max 5. This aspect is still open for debate but I like the idea. It does make an impact on my next question, though, regarding PRE-EMPTIVES. In the Zar-world, this is the range from (22)23-25zp (24zp if ♠).

 

What pre-emptive bids are GOOD and which one is BAD - based upon numbers, experience and some subjective points of view?

 

First a sceptic question: what is the purpose of giving TWO opponents vs ONE partner the advantage of knowing basically every aspect of the layout and strength of my hand? - asking for a more deeper answer; not just "it makes life hard for opps" - does it not make life hard for partner too? If they get the contract, it'd be easier for them to guess where the missing honours are, no?

 

Anyhow - I have the entire 2-level at my disposal. Here is my current suggested layout. Please comment - why should I not use them and so forth. And yes - because of the 4-5 card major 1H/S opening, it does inflict some of my choices.

 

1./2. seat

NV 1NT pre-emptive 10-12hp ( 11-13hp 4333 )

2♣ 6c either major 10-14hp ( normal opening, as a normal 1M-1M/NT-2M )

2♦ 6c major 7-9hp pre-emptive (Multi)

2M 5M+4+ minor 7-9hp pre-emptive ( like my current avatar hand: KQJT3 543 QJ32 T )

2N 5-5 minor 7-9hp pre-emptive

 

3./4. seat

2♣ 6c suit 10-14hp natural

2♦ 6c either major 10-14hp

2M 6c M 15-18hp ( which would normally go: 1M-1M/NT-3M )

2N 5-(4)5 both minor 10-14hp

 

Or should one just keep the same pre-emptives as in 1st and 2nd seat... Should I make room for the "standard" 6c major pre-emptive also in 3rd and 4th seat? Please comment.

 

PS: I know there are tons of systems out there - which are really, really good. I am doing this mostly for learning purposes. So any comments like "why bother" is not the ones I am going for.

[awm]

A few points here:

 

(1) What happens with a club one-suiter when NV? It seems like using 1♦ as balanced or both minors or one minor is awfully nebulous and will be somewhat of a loser in competitive bidding.

 

(2) If allowed by your SO, it seems to work better to open the two-suiters with the multi-type bid and natural weak twos in the majors.

 

(3) What do you open with 6-5 type hands? You often do want to show both suits, so there is some advantage to opening at the one-level. Similarly with 6-4 in the majors (esp. if the 4cM is good).

 

At some point I was trying to come up with a good relay-based system and had some idea close to what you proposed. Turns out it's pretty easy to set up response structures to this (I can post if people care) but basically the openings were:

 

1♣=15+ hcp any shape; all other suit openings through 2♠ show 8-14 hcp

 

1♦ = 4+♦, maybe 4cM, maybe longer club suit, if 6+♦ will have a 4cM or 5+♣

 

1♥ = 4+♥, if 4♥ will be 4♥+5♣ (exactly) or 4414 (exactly); if 6+♥ will have either 4+♠ or a 5+ minor

 

1♠ = 4+♠, if 4♠ will be 4♠+5♣ (exactly); if 6+♠ will have either 4+♥ or a 5+ minor

 

1NT = 12-14, including all 5332 patterns

 

2♣ = 6+♣, may have a 4cM or 4♦

2♦ = 6+♦, no 4cM, may have 4♣

2M = 6+ suit, usually no 5-card side suit and not 6-4 in the majors

 

You could probably convert this to ZAR points pretty easily too.

[jtfanclub]

2♦ = 6+♦, no 4cM, may have 4♣

OK, I give....

 

What is the point of this one-in-a-million bid? Does this really ruin the 1♦ bid if it's included there? What were you using the 3♦ opening for? The 1♦-anything-3♦ bid? Seems like you could easily split these hands into those two bids.

 

Then you can put the 2M bids into 2♦, defining it as a 6+ card major without a second suit, and the usual Multi responses,

 

and have 2M show a 6+ card suit with a second suit.

 

I don't think I understood the original post- I'd have to see the 1 bids before I knew what I'd like for the 2 bids.

[Free]

1./2. seat

NV 1NT pre-emptive 10-12hp ( 11-13hp 4333 )

2♣ 6c either major 10-14hp ( normal opening, as a normal 1M-1M/NT-2M )

2♦ 6c major 7-9hp pre-emptive (Multi)

2M 5M+4+ minor 7-9hp pre-emptive ( like my current avatar hand: KQJT3 543 QJ32 T )

2N 5-5 minor 7-9hp pre-emptive

 

3./4. seat

2♣ 6c suit 10-14hp natural

2♦ 6c either major 10-14hp

2M 6c M 15-18hp ( which would normally go: 1M-1M/NT-3M )

2N 5-(4)5 both minor 10-14hp

I have played Multi and Muiderberg a lot, but I don't like it's effectiveness (especially the 2♥ Muiderberg sucks). Against weak players you can win by opening a lot, but against good ones it doesn't work that often.

I actually prefer natural preempts, and if I have space left, some bid for weak hands with both Majors.

 

Here are 2 possibilities I like:

2♦ = weak with both Majors

2M = natural

 

or

 

2♦ = multi

2♥ = weak with both Majors

2♠ = muiderberg

 

The second one can open more hands, but you need the multi...

 

I don't really see the need to open strong in 3rd and 4th seat. A preempt can be very effective, sacrificing these to show 1 particular hand type with 15-18hcp seems a waste. Preempting minimum openings with minors may be useful however, since the hand may belong to your opponents.

[firmit]

At some point I was trying to come up with a good relay-based system and had some idea close to what you proposed. Turns out it's pretty easy to set up response structures to this (I can post if people care) but basically the openings were:

I am using the Symmetric Relay responses to 1♣ opening - and it seems to work like a charm. After 1♦, I am still having some doubts, though. So I would very much like to see your suggestion.

 

6-5 hands - I must admit - I have (for now) put these on hold... When discussing the NT ranges, someone said ( hrothgar I believe ) that I should build up the basic of the system and select the NT ranges to fit within. Maybe the pre-emptive bids should do the same. Thus - maybe I will have to find room for the "wild"-hands before I go further...

 

I like to be constructive - thus I would like to be able to take a few tricks if stuck in my 2M bid in 3rd seat doubled. Partner has passed so I am probably on my own. Some argue that pre-empting in 3rd seat might be the best seat for pre-empting - makes it difficult for opps to make a penalty dbl..? I don't know..