Hurry, we dont have much time!

[plaur]

Last night playing local duplicates in a large mixed field. Partner declared 3NT in the first game of the round and her LHO used a lot of time defending. At one point LHO used about 3 to 4 minutes or so. He finally lead a small through dumy that had two small in the suit and then RHO started thinking! Arguing with him self, gesturing, taking out a card, putting it back, thinking again etc. What was he doing while his partner was thinking? The whole game took way more than half the time alotted for three games, ours opps using all the time. I was a little annoyed because I know slow play sometimes make my partner loose her concentration. She made 9 with 11 needed for average. Nice defense and they have the right to think and use time. Then RHO declares 2♦ on a 4-3 fit missing a solid 8 card major fit and takes his wee time to play it for the obvious below average.

 

RHO is scoring the result, his cards for the last game still in the pocket, around us a few tables are finished and start to get up. A few minutes remaining. As my partner is sorting her cards and not beeing slow about it at all, RHO tells her:

 

"Hurry, we dont have much time!"

 

I went from calm to steaming in a split second. Could not control it.

 

I told RHO in no uncertain terms that his remark was uncalled for and that he was beeing very rude. DIRECTOR! I called out, twice and quite loud, im afraid. RHO apologized. I told the director I wanted to assert that our opponent had used all of the time and now was beeing very rude. His reply was that he would give us another two minutes to finish the board if we played it quick. We did. RHO taking 10 tricks in 3♥ with half the field making game. It was obvious for anyone that I was steaming and visibly shaking, but I kept my mouth shut.

 

After the game I asked RHO his name, because their card had only their forenames. Only then I realized they are experienced and current national team players! That made me really mad! I wont quote what I then told him, there was some profanity. Walking away from the table I called out loud "What an idiot!"

 

Sitting down at the next table I was still shaking, had to get up and take a short walk and sitting down again I apologized and cracked a halfharted joke about me having such a temper I would end up like a hooligan entering the football field during the game (Denmark just lost a match that way). That took off some steam and we could laugh about it and I calmed down. After that round I apologized again to our opponents, who said they didnt mind at all. I think they were affected though because they played very poorly. Sorry guys, if you read this.

 

I was beeing the idiot. How could a little remark like that make me go ballistic ? I still think RHO deserved the full load. Just wished I could have reacted in a cool and calm manner.

[awm]

Time in bridge can be pretty frustrating.

 

At one point I was playing in the Spingold. I was on a fairly weak team playing a fairly strong team. One of my opponents (who had previously represented the US internationally, but is now perhaps past his prime) was well-known for being glacially slow. Sure enough, he took ages playing and defending hands, even when he knew he was cold for a game he would take five-ten minutes declaring looking for an overtrick. Eventually the director arrived and told us we were going to lose several boards from the round. At this point I complained and said that my opponents had been playing very slowly, and that I didn't feel it was fair to take boards away from us (we were clearly behind) because of his slow play. Both my opponents denied that this was the case, the director said she couldn't do anything, and that in future I should call more promptly if the opponents were playing slowly. As soon as the director left the table, my opponents admitted that in fact they had been slow -- they just didn't want the director to know!

 

Since this incident, I've been more pro-active in calling the director when my opponents are playing excruciatingly slowly. Typically when I do this, my opponents immediately become furious, shouting at me and the director. The director never does anything in these cases, but I'm hopeful that if ever boards need to be removed the director will consider penalizing the side that has been the subject of previous tempo complaints. In any case, having to do this makes for a much less pleasant game, but it seems quite unfair that one side can essentially take up all the time alotted, then essentially penalize their opponents with time issues (either by forcing opponents to play quickly, or by having boards taken away when they are ahead in the match).

[pclayton]

In the NAOP's two years ago, Brian and I were 2nd going into the final session. Since I've never won a National, much less had a top 10, the pressure was evident.

 

The 2nd board of the final session, we are playing against an East Coast pair and the PIQ has a very difficult play at about T8. He took 10 minutes to decide what card to play (honest).

 

WE are now on the clock. We pitch about 4 boards in the next 5 rounds trying to get caught up. Later I screw up a key card response since I'm on megatilt (and that doesn't happen to me very often). We end up with a miserable 43% game and slide to 11th :)

 

Lessons learned:

 

1. Don't play catch-up. The 1/4 board penalty for time does not compare to the numerous boards you will pitch if you try to catch up. OTOH, if you have a simple claim and there is a .01% chance your opps will drop the extra trick, just claim and be glad you saved time.

 

2. In the most important events, play can creep to a glacial pace. Stay inside yourself, absorb yourself in the hand, and use the extra time to perhaps figure out things you may not be aware of. If you have a lock on the unseen distribution, just sit back and relax. Adam's right, directors seldom do anything, but a tactic I've used since is that if a player is taking a lot of time, simply say, "I know you have a problem here, but if this takes much longer I need to call the director, since I don't want to get penalized". I think this is a lot less confrontational and gives a fair warning to a player.

 

Oh, and if this stuff stresses you out, don't play the Fast Pairs. :)

[Guest Jlall]

yep def call the director if your opps are being slow.

[jdonn]

yep def call the director if your opps are being slow.

I hate doing it since it's usually interpreted as rude by the slow player, but there isn't much choice. The directors are consistent, if you are behind and you didn't call then both pairs are equally at fault.

[Guest Jlall]

I hate doing it since it's usually interpreted as rude by the slow player, but there isn't much choice.

Yes we all know you try hard not to come across as rude :rolleyes:

 

Seriously though the slow players are rude for playing so slowly.

[bid_em_up]

The 2nd board of the final session, we are playing against an East Coast pair and the PIQ has a very difficult play at about T8.

PIQ = ? Pair in question?

[sceptic]

The issue is not about bridge, I think the issue is about your temper. see a Pschcatrist and get some help, relax it is only a game after all

[pclayton]

The 2nd board of the final session, we are playing against an East Coast pair and the PIQ  has a very difficult play at about T8.

PIQ = ? Pair in question?

Very good.

 

PIQ is used in my business to mean 'property in question'. Glad you figured it out.

[zasanya]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

[GeeGee]

The issue is not about bridge, I think the issue is about your temper. see a Pschcatrist and get some help, relax it is only a game after all

It is only a game after all?????!!!!

 

Oh no it isn't, ask Mrs Bennet! I'd be seriously inclined to use capitals except I know it's rude to shout. :P

 

scrabble players use them 

 

I never knew about Scrabble timing devices. I have a nice lady bridge partner with whom I occasionally play 'rude word scrabble'. It rarely lakes long to play when you are allowed rude words. B)

 

Back to serious. As a club level TD, I have learnt who are the slow ones, and I will warn them and then penalise them if necessary. It's awful though for the non-offending pair, that they cannot play a board that could be a top for them. (our slower players are also the poorer players).

 

I do wonder about how you cope at regional or higher levels, where the TDs may never have met the players before. I also wonder about the top-level tournaments, where I have read of a player taking 20 minutes to play one card, in the middle of a hand!

 

Geoff

[Finch]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I've played in many events with "timing devices", though not timing devices per player.

[paulg]

scrabble players use them 

I never knew about Scrabble timing devices. I have a nice lady bridge partner with whom I occasionally play 'rude word scrabble'. It rarely lakes long to play when you are allowed rude words. :)

Scrabble players play with chess clocks. Each player has 25 minutes for all their moves in a tournament game.

 

Tournament Scrabble players have no concept of a 'rude' word. They only understand words that are permitted and words that are disallowed. This is also true at club level, where even the vicar's wife happily plays the most obscene words in the dictionary.

 

However, like many, Scrabble players are happy to adjust their principles given the right incentive. For the last couple of years ESPN has sponsored and telecast the US National Scrabble Championships and the final is played with a 'obscene-free' dictionary. The Scrabble community abhors this, but then gets down and plays for the $25,000 first prize.

 

Paul

[blackshoe]

Back to serious. As a club level TD, I have learnt who are the slow ones, and I will warn them and then penalise them if necessary. It's awful though for the non-offending pair, that they cannot play a board that could be a top for them. (our slower players are also the poorer players).

Heh. Last week, at a local club where the TD is vehemently against late plays, we actually got one. I was shocked. :P

 

We also managed to get it played at the end, which was even more shocking. Usually, opponents can't be found, or are the last to be playing the last board of their last round, or the board can't be found, or... there seems often some reason why an assigned late play can't be played. Which explains maybe why the TD doesn't like 'em.

[the hog]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I have seen this suggestion before and while it bears thinking about, it does have some problems. How are you going to divide the time - per board, per round? What happens if the defence/declarer has a real problem on the last hand of a round and needs time to think? What penalties will be levied. All in all, I think it is too problematical to consider.

[jdonn]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I have seen this suggestion before and while it bears thinking about, it does have some problems. How are you going to divide the time - pre board, per round? What happens if the defence/declarer has a real problem on the last hand of a round and needs time to think? What penalties will be levied. All in all, I think it is too problematical to consider.

Even though it's unrelated, a similar suggestion would work well with stop cards. Just have a little red light on them that goes on when they are placed on the table and goes off after 10 seconds.

[the hog]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I have seen this suggestion before and while it bears thinking about, it does have some problems. How are you going to divide the time - pre board, per round? What happens if the defence/declarer has a real problem on the last hand of a round and needs time to think? What penalties will be levied. All in all, I think it is too problematical to consider.

Even though it's unrelated, a similar suggestion would work well with stop cards. Just have a little red light on them that goes on when they are placed on the table and goes off after 10 seconds.

Well, a friend of mine in Australia is experimenting with electronic bidding pads. You enter the bidding, jumps bids can be programmed to automatically produce a pause, the result of the hand is entered and the scores for the section, or the match if it is Imps are displayed immediately the last board is played. He has shown this to the ABF, (Australian Bridge Federation), but the weren't interested for a variety of reasons - cost being only one of these.

 

Technically the electronic pad can even be built into a table, not just placed on it.

[GeeGee]

[Well, a friend of mine in Australia is experimenting with electronic bidding pads. You enter the bidding, jumps bids can be programmed to automatically produce a pause, the result of the hand is entered and the scores for the section, or the match if it is Imps are displayed immediately the last board is played. He has shown this to the ABF, (Australian Bridge Federation), but the weren't interested for a variety of reasons - cost being only one of these.

 

Technically the electronic pad can even be built into a table, not just placed on it.

wow!

 

We've now got Bridgmates, if we could add something like this it would really enhance our sessions.

 

But I guess it won't cure the slow players

 

Geoff

[zasanya]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I have seen this suggestion before and while it bears thinking about, it does have some problems. How are you going to divide the time - per board, per round? What happens if the defence/declarer has a real problem on the last hand of a round and needs time to think? What penalties will be levied. All in all, I think it is too problematical to consider.

In chess if a player oversteps the time limit she loses that game whatever the position on the board.In scrabble a player loses 10 points for every 1 minute above the prescribed time limit.

Lets consider an 8 board team match.Should be over in an hour.Lets say 64 minutes.Each player will have a chess clock and will be given 16 minutes.Suppose N is the dealer.Her clock is started.When the bid is made she stops her clock and starts East's clock .After E makes her bid she stops her clock and starts South's clock and soon .After the bidding is over the opening leaders clock is started.She plays a card; stops her own clock and starts declarer's and so on.

A penalty of 2 imps for every extra minute.

It will be best if all cards are played out and no claims or concessions can be made.

[Rossoneri]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

I have seen this suggestion before and while it bears thinking about, it does have some problems. How are you going to divide the time - per board, per round? What happens if the defence/declarer has a real problem on the last hand of a round and needs time to think? What penalties will be levied. All in all, I think it is too problematical to consider.

In chess if a player oversteps the time limit she loses that game whatever the position on the board.In scrabble a player loses 10 points for every 1 minute above the prescribed time limit.

Lets consider an 8 board team match.Should be over in an hour.Lets say 64 minutes.Each player will have a chess clock and will be given 16 minutes.Suppose N is the dealer.Her clock is started.When the bid is made she stops her clock and starts East's clock .After E makes her bid she stops her clock and starts South's clock and soon .After the bidding is over the opening leaders clock is started.She plays a card; stops her own clock and starts declarer's and so on.

A penalty of 2 imps for every extra minute.

It will be best if all cards are played out and no claims or concessions can be made.

I can easily see a problem with this, faster players can just play out hands instead of claiming just to run down the opponent's clock.

[nige1]

I have made this suggestion before and I will make it once more.The authorities should seriously think of introducing timing devices at least for important events.Chess players use them,scrabble players use them ;why not Bridge players?

Agree with zasanya 100%. Clocks would show who really are the slow players and speed up the play. If tempo rules were enforced, so that (for example) each bid or play took at least 5 sconds and no more than 10. Then the director could shoot the hesitater :( Breaks in tempo, themselves, could be penalized -- rather than the director vainly trying to work out what was suggested by the unauthorized information, whether it was so used, and whether opponents were damaged. Nowadays, such cases tend to result in the most contentious rulings :(

 

Simple egg-timers would suffice for this. although an electronic set up would be better,

 

As in chess and scrabble, players would rapidly learn to employ other players' thinking time :(

[nige1]

  It will be best if all cards are played out and no claims or concessions can be made.

I disagree. On the contrary, IMO, in order to encourage claims, it would be better to accord the claimer an automatic time bonus.

 

I like the on-line claims protocol where the claimer simply shows his hand and specifies a number of tricks. Opponents can dispute the claim by playing on. At face-to-face Bridge, A defender would claim by showing his had to delclarer but not his partner.

 

This would greatly simplify claim law and make it less open to abuse.

 

Yes I know -- against bunnies, an expert might lay his hand down, with a spurious claim, in an attempt to discover which way to take a two-way finesse :) Pull the other one :) Even we bunnies might realize that a con was being attempted :) Would you like to be in the expert's shoes when the director arrived.? :( :( :( :(

[Halo]

Completely disagree with Nige1 suggestions.

 

As a chess player, clocks are just intrinsic to the game since the 19th century as timekeepers.

 

Nothing to do with judging claims or any other Bridge Laws rubbish.

 

Bring them in to control timeliness, nothing else.

[MikeRJ]

To me one of the biggest problem with the "chess clock" solution is how to allocate the time spent answering questions on the meaning of alertable bids - is the time charged to the side making the conventional call, to the side asking questions, or split bewteen the two? Whichever way is open to abuse.

 

Mike

[Fluffy]

at chess you have a free hand for the clock, and bridge you don't.

 

 

The clock could be tried online, actually it would be pretty easy to implement

 

For the nature of how I play online I'd pretty much apreciate that players had a rating system with a ratio of time spent/hands played, I don't really care of my opponent's level of play, what I want them is to be fast.