WEAK 2-BIDS REVISITED Part 2

[Double !]

In my previous poll, (Part 1) I attempted to survey the minimum number of cards in the bid suit partner is entitled to expect when one opens a weak 2 bid in 3rd seat given different vulnerability situations and scoring formats (matchpoint vs, imps: one could probably add B.A.M. to the results for responses to the matchpoint questions.)

 

In this posting, I am curious to know how people play New Suit and 2NT responses by passed hand partner to a 3rd seat weak 2 bid in particular (i.e. what do these bids mean?), and am also interested in any other bids and response structures that anyone might care to share. (Examples: Opps pass throughout/ Pass- 2H-2S?, or Pass-2H-3D, or Pass- 2S-2NT).

 

Your contributions to these polls is greatly appreciated.

 

DHL

[BillHiggin]

I prefer new suits to be fit type bids (opposite 3rd seat weak 2, if no fit you should be afraid to move - be very afraid).

 

2N gets the same treatment as it does opposite any other weak 2, but shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how undisciplined 3rd seat weak two bids can be. If I thought there was any passed hand other than a great fitting one that had any chance to warrent game opposite my hand, I would not use a 3rd seat weak two bid. If 1st seat has a hand that would warrant a 2N bid in other situations, then we may actually take 8 tricks (9 on really good days). It is possible that some other strain is better, but the decision to use the 3rd seat weak two was a bet against that possibility - assume the bet was correct (at least you will not lose the blame game).

[kenrexford]

P-P-2M-P-2NT is "minors" for me.

[mr1303]

P P 2M P 2NT is an invitation to save, whereas 2M P 3M is not.

 

Of course this particular sequence is unlikely, but P P 2H 2S 2NT might well happen.

 

Anyway, the idea is that if partner has a Jxxxx suit and was just trying to get in the way and a save might go for millions, you don't save, whereas if you have a KQJxxx suit and some shape, you find a profitable sacrifice.

 

2M P 3M does not invite any sacrfice whatsoever no matter what the weak 2 bidder has.

[Double !]

2N gets the same treatment as it does opposite any other weak 2, but shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how undisciplined 3rd seat weak two bids can be. If I thought there was any passed hand other than a great fitting one that had any chance to warrent game opposite my hand, I would not use a 3rd seat weak two bid.

 

Thank you for your response, but I'm not sure that I agree with you that there are no hands that a passed hand opener can have that could still make 4M yet wasn't opened such as Axxx, xxxx, x, Axxx. One possible use of 2NT might be to show such a hand. I can't bid a new suit because, like you said, it would be a lead-directing fit raise. (You couldn't believe how many people don't know this.) This type of could probably still make 3M opposite a 5-card rag, and more if P happens to have one of those 5-5s or good distro.

 

Another possible use of 2NT is as a transfer to 3C (McCabe). It is conceivable that passed hand might have a reasonable 6 card minor but didn't pre-empt because a) the hand contained a 4-card major, or b ) the hand couldn't open 2 diamonds because the partnership plays 2 diamonds as something different from a weak 2-bid. As Ken suggested, a third meaning could be run like heck and bid your better minor, you are dead if you play in your suit.

 

Allowing for 5-card suit wk 2-bids in the interest of pressure bidding does impact on the constructive quality of the bid, and creates the need for some scrambling. 2NT for minors seems risky to me because P might actually have a decent 6-card suit and 2-2 in the minors: 2NT for minors seems to presume that the weak 2 was made on a 5-bagger.

 

This is why I asked if people play some form of bid that asks 3rd seat opener whether or not a 1M bid was up to strength or not (example Drury). If the answer is yes, than a 3rd seat 5-card weak 2-bid could really be a dog (with all due respect to any dogs reading this posting.) I look forward to more responses from forum members.

 

DHL

[BillHiggin]

Thank you for your response, but I'm not sure that I agree with you that there are no hands that a passed hand opener can have that could still make 4M yet wasn't opened such as Axxx, xxxx, x, Axxx. One possible use of 2NT might be to show such a hand. I can't bid a new suit because, like you said, it would be a lead-directing fit raise. (You couldn't believe how many people don't know this.) This type of could probably still make 3M opposite a 5-card rag, and more if P happens to have one of those 5-5s or good distro.

Had the question been "what SHOULD 2N mean", I might have chosen a different answer. And I would be willing to listen to partner's proposals as long as they leave me free to be insane in 3rd seat (well - the sanity level in other seats may be open to question).

 

If 1st seat holds Axxx xxxx x Axxx, I would suggest 4M (especially if M is hearts). That might make, be a good sacrifice, or be entirely wrong - bet they seldom are able to double.

 

I do agree that there might well be a decent meaning for 2N. In a new partnership, my first priority is to convince partner that 3rd seat weak twos are not meant as a foundation for scientific bidding.

 

In a previous life, I played in a lot of pick-up partnerships where the priorities were to convince partner 1) 3rd seat weak twos virtually rule out game and 2) I do not need to be rescued when you do not fit my weak two suit. Wiser partners would already know both.

[Guest Jlall]

I actually have discussed with partners that 2N by a passed hand asks for shortness (the theory being you need shortness opposite a suit where you have no wastage to make game).