Variable weak NT

[firmit]

Considering applying the following, in a strong club context:

 

1./2. seat NV

1NT 10-12hp, 1D-1x-1NT 13-15hp no 5 card major

 

3./4. seats NV and all VUL

1NT as 13-15hp, no 5 card major

 

1C-1x-1NT 16-19hp, 5 card major possible

 

Is this a normal way of pre-empting with a weak 1NT?

Any thoughts? Should it be with 5c major possible?

[Free]

Dunno how you're going to show 16-19 in 1st and 2nd seat... Imo it's not a good idea to play mini NT in a natural system. You have too many ranges to cover. You better play a 1NT rebid as 13-16 and a 2NT as 17-19, but it's still a lot of ground to cover... 10-13, 14-17 and 18-19 may be possible, but these are too wide ranges to be really efficient.

 

11+-14 all the way (5M possible) is my preferred method, but I'm not saying that it's the best. :)

 

EDIT: didn't see that it was in a strong ♣ context... Makes sense not to open 10-12 hands in 3rd & 4th seat, so your scheme makes sense imo.

[aelred]

A simple scheme we used a lot here (Romania) is:

10-13 1NT

1♣ 14-16 or NAT UNBAL

1♦ 17-19 or NAT UNBAL (bal hands rebid 1NT)

The 1♦ opening is obviously inspired by Nightmare.

 

And we switch the 1♣ and 1NT ranges when VUL or in 3rd (in 4th we play a 1NT opening as "to play there, usually balanced" :))

 

It seems to work pretty well, and our system is natural (well, maybe except T-Walsh).

 

IMNSHO, playing a mini-NT when not vul is always a great idea. Keeping the strong bal hands on the one level, as in Precision, is also nice.

 

Aelred

 

P.S. As for the original posting, the key words are "in a strong club context". I've played quite a lot just about that scheme about 3-4 years ago. The only difference was that we used 10-13 and 14-16 for 1NT and 1♦-1banana-1NT respectively (we switched vul or in 3rd/4th). It's very playable IMO, either with 5c M possible or not.

[pbleighton]

edit, misread post.

 

I would play 14-16 instead of 13-15 as the vul opener. You can also play 10-12 at all vuls in 1-3, if you have the b***s.

 

Not for everyone :)

 

Play the one heart relay (1C-1D-1H forces 1S, then opener shows hearts or balanced).

 

Then not vul 1C-1D-1NT = 16-18, 1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT = 19-21, 1C-1D-2NT = 22-24, and 1C-1D-1H-1S-1NT = 25+.

 

The 2NT opener = some preempt, as in both minors.

 

Peter

[rbforster]

Is this a normal way of pre-empting with a weak 1NT?  Should it be with 5c major possible?

This way seems perfectly reasonable and is very similar to what I play. I would add that I usually still play the "weak" NT range in 3rd seat NV (as well as 1st & 2nd). Everybody knows you need to preempt aggressively in 3rd seat, right? As for 5 card majors, I like keeping them optional so you can bid 1M or 1N depending on what the hand looks like (recalling that if you start with 1M with the values for a NT opener you've got to rebid a 3 card minor next time...). I tend to like 5cM in the weak NT more so than in the 13-15 NT or in the 1♣(16+)-1Y-1NT(16-19) situations.

 

You might also consider whether you want to open all the 10-12 balanced hands when Vulnerable 1♦ (not sure if you meant that you did this or not). Originally we played that

 

1♦-1M-1NT 10-12 balanced (when Vul)

 

but later decided we didn't really feel compelled to open all balanced 10-12 counts when Vul. We switched to a natural 4+ 1♦ opener and just opened 1NT Vul on 13-15 (and maybe some 12's if we liked them). Weaker balanced hands we didn't open.

[kenrexford]

If you are playing an ultra-weak 1NT opening (10-12 or so), then I would suggest using the two-way minor opening structure suggested above, but reversing the meanings, such that:

 

1♦...1NT shows 13-15 and

1♣...1NT shows 15-17.

 

The overlap is for adjustments.

 

But, the idea is to have the auction indicating the stronger, and more difficult, range via 1♣, which maximizes space.

 

Simply put. 1♦-P-1NT probably shows 6-9. This is difficult opposite 15-17, or any other range, as you then often end up in 2NT too often, or miss game if conservative.

 

By contrast, consider 1♣-P-1NT as 8-11 and 1♣-P-1♦(semi-artificial, might be balanced 5-7). This resolves a world of hurt.

 

Of course, one might suggest that the 8-11 range for 1♣-P-1NT creates similar problems, of the range is 15-17. Valid point. With GF if partner has 15-17, you would be better bidding 1♦, perhaps, with 1♣-P-1NT being a tighter 8-9.

 

The point, whatever the range, is to have 1♣ handle the middle-high range, and possibly a wider range, because of the space available.

 

BTW, you might catch that this structure also implies not using Walsh after 1♣. Walsh does not cater well to the 10-12 range 1NT, for this reason. The alternative of standard with a possibly-waiting 1♦, or even Montreal (1M promises 5+, 1♦ artificial, denying a five-card major), seems to work better. T-Walsh I've not thought through as to this NT structure, but it's not GCC in the ACBL yet, anyway.

 

Montreal also gains slightly by preserving some degree of right-siding when Opener is strong, balanced and a 4-4 major fit exists.

[awm]

The original suggestion was for a strong club system. I've played a bunch of different variable ranges in this context. A few observations:

 

Opposite a passed hand I'd prefer to play stronger than 13-15. The issue is, if you open 10-12 in 1st and 2nd you are opening most to all ten-counts. This means a passed hand will never really be strong enough to invite game opposite 13-15 balanced, which substantially increases your chances of missing a major suit fit. I'd rather play 14-16 or 15-17 opposite a passed partner in this style. Also, 13-15 is usually treated as a "weak" notrump, meaning people play penalty doubles. Opposite a passed partner the penalty double is much more likely to happen, and more likely to pay off for opponents.

 

It's not clear what the meaning of 1♦-1X-1NT would be when the notrump range is 13-15. It seems silly to open the 10-12 hands at all when vulnerable or opposite a passed hand. Again, bumping the notrump range up to something like 14-16 or 15-17 will help here.

 

In one of my partnerships I play something very strange. Our NV 1NT is 10-12 and our V 1NT is 19-21 (actually more like good 18-21). In any case the 1NT rebid is 13-15. While this sounds weird, there are many advantages. The 1♣..1nt sequence remains 16-18 regardless of colors. We rarely miss major suit fits by opening 1NT (except when we open 10-12, which "the field" isn't opening at all). The 19-21 balanced hand is a pain in competitive auctions -- say the bidding goes 1♣-2M-pass-pass. With something like 17 balanced it's pretty easy for opener to pass -- this is basically the "expected" strong club opener. But with 20 balanced, you have enough extra that it's not comfortable to pass the hand out, but not enough extra that you're really safe to bid. In fact Meckwell have been known to play a strong 2NT (even though it's a slam killer bid) to deal with this problem.

 

As for playing mini notrumps in a standard system, in some ways this is easier than playing 12-14. The problem with 12-14 is that your 1-suit openings have a bimodal distribution (both unbalanced 12 and balanced 15 are pretty likely). This makes it harder to cope with in competitive situations, since partner cannot assume the stronger hand without risk of serious problems when opener has the unbalanced 12, but this leaves opener wanting a way to show the "balanced hand with extras" in competition. Playing the mini, your 1-suit openings are typically unbalanced 12 or balanced 13, about equal strength. I'd just continue to open "better minor" and play 1m..1nt as 13-16, 1m..2nt as 17-18, and open 2nt on 19-20. Playing both minors "could be short" leads to substantial losses in competitive situations.

[hrothgar]

Opposite a passed hand I'd prefer to play stronger than 13-15. The issue is, if you open 10-12 in 1st and 2nd you are opening most to all ten-counts. This means a passed hand will never really be strong enough to invite game opposite 13-15 balanced, which substantially increases your chances of missing a major suit fit. I'd rather play 14-16 or 15-17 opposite a passed partner in this style. Also, 13-15 is usually treated as a "weak" notrump, meaning people play penalty doubles. Opposite a passed partner the penalty double is much more likely to happen, and more likely to pay off for opponents.

I very much agree with Adam's recommendation here

 

MOSCITO uses very light openings in 1st and second seat. In 3rd/4th we tighten up the opening requirements significantly for precisely the reasons that Adam suggests.

 

Paul uses a 14-16 HCP 1NT in 3rd/4th. I use 14 - 16 or 15 -17 depending on the partnership. Please note: If the opponent do pull out a penalty double, things will often be very unpleasant. Not only has partner denied any real strength, he has (typically) denied enough shape to start scrambling.