Guest Jlall Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 You hold white/red xxxx QJx Qxx Axx. Partner opens 4H, RHO bids 4S, you bid 5H, LHO bids 5S, partner bids 6H, pass pass 6S, partner doubles it and you have to lead. What is your choice and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 I would lead the ♣A because it won't be ruffed and it lets me look at dummy and partner's card before making a more committal play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 pard should have a void spade and some side tricks for his double (I can't believe he has 2 voids and to dbl on sing club is silly). x♦ here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 I really have to admit to the ace of clubs. It's hard for me to imagine why this would be here if that was the winning choice. Couldn't a diamond from the queen just let them draw trumps and run diamonds to throw a loser if partner's void is in clubs, if he even has one? Seems way too risky to me. Or maybe we were even cashing AK of clubs, or two aces... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 You hold white/red xxxx QJx Qxx Axx. Partner opens 4H, RHO bids 4S, you bid 5H, LHO bids 5S, partner bids 6H, pass pass 6S, partner doubles it and you have to lead. What is your choice and why? In my less than expert opinion... Huh. Partner pushed them into 6 and then doubled, so he should have one sure trick outside of hearts. Can't be spades, unlikely to be clubs, should be diamonds. I somehow doubt that he's looking for a ruff. The possibilities seem to me to be... 1) Partner bid 6♥ to make. We need to set them 4 tricks. Lead a spade, they'llend up taking 7 or 8 spade tricks, we'll take the rest. 2) Partner X'd because nobody else is going to be anywhere near that high, settting it two tricks is a good board. Lead the ace of clubs, continue if partner encourages. Otherwise I'll shift to a diamond. I'll go with option 1. And pray. Curious to see what the experts think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 spade. Partner did not bid 6c or 6d for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 I really have to admit to the ace of clubs. It's hard for me to imagine why this would be here if that was the winning choice. Couldn't a diamond from the queen just let them draw trumps and run diamonds to throw a loser if partner's void is in clubs, if he even has one? Seems way too risky to me. Or maybe we were even cashing AK of clubs, or two aces... Wait. So partner bid 6H and doubled with no cards in diamonds and a club void? So it was a lightner double and opponents bid to 6S on an 8-card fit? I think partner's double is for penalty and is impossible without an outside ace, or cards in both side suits, so a diamond seems pretty safe. If Partner's ♦A gets ruffed at least it sets up one trick only for now. (If it is a Lightner double then it's probably based on ♦AK and a diamond is still right.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 I really have to admit to the ace of clubs. It's hard for me to imagine why this would be here if that was the winning choice. Couldn't a diamond from the queen just let them draw trumps and run diamonds to throw a loser if partner's void is in clubs, if he even has one? Seems way too risky to me. Or maybe we were even cashing AK of clubs, or two aces... Wait. So partner bid 6H and doubled with no cards in diamonds and a club void? So it was a lightner double and opponents bid to 6S on an 8-card fit? I think partner's double is for penalty and is impossible without an outside ace, or cards in both side suits, so a diamond seems pretty safe. If Partner's ♦A gets ruffed at least it sets up one trick only for now. (If it is a Lightner double then it's probably based on ♦AK and a diamond is still right.) I agree with you that I dislike my reasoning now. But I am still 100% sure I would have led the ace of clubs at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 I think partner's double is for penalty and is impossible without an outside ace, or cards in both side suits I really really don't agree with this. It is very common to just double with a void and hope for the best. Sometimes they make but your imp odds are heavily in your favor. Besides, on an auction like this where they clearly didn't just power into it if you have a void and partner finds the lead you're very likely to beat them. If they can withstand the ruff and still make it they grossly misjudged to begin with. As far as it being unlikely that partner is 1-0, I think given the auction (partner opening 4H and later bidding 6H), that's not so unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 As I mentioned, I do not see why partner cannot simply bid 6c or 6d, if they want that lead, as opposed to making a double to make us guess what suit they want lead. Trying to make things easier for partner, even for top class players, I assume is a top priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 I think partner's double is for penalty and is impossible without an outside ace, or cards in both side suits I really really don't agree with this. It is very common to just double with a void and hope for the best. Sometimes they make but your imp odds are heavily in your favor. Besides, on an auction like this where they clearly didn't just power into it if you have a void and partner finds the lead you're very likely to beat them. If they can withstand the ruff and still make it they grossly misjudged to begin with. As far as it being unlikely that partner is 1-0, I think given the auction (partner opening 4H and later bidding 6H), that's not so unlikely. I wasn't saying partner should not make a lightner double if he is void in clubs and has a spade singleton, I ruled this out (rightly or wrongly) because I didn't think opponents would bid like this on an 8-card fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Well, an unpopular trump lead for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Partner bid 6♥ to make. We need to set them 4 tricks. Lead a spade, they'llend up taking 7 or 8 spade tricks, we'll take the rest. If partner bid 6♥ to make, there's something seriously wrong with his 4♥ opening.... or he expected some other hand from me. I don't think opps are sure who is saving here, but for me it looks to be us. Partner should have a non-heart trick for his double, doesn't have to be a void. I'll lead the ♣A, since then I might know how to beat it at trick 2. The alternative would be a trump, to avoid too many ruffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 I felt like the ace of clubs was right because I could shift if necessary. Oops, it got ruffed and partner had a diamond void, and our HA was cashing lol. Anyways, mike777 hit on a very good point which is really what I wanted to discuss. At the other table they bid 6D with my partners hand (1705). My partner was very hard on himself for not making this bid. My feeling was that the opponents are not going to bid 6S if you bid 6D, and usually if you bid 6H and they bid 6S and you double partner will know what to lead given that you're 0-5 in the minors. Basically I felt like he was resulting himself, but my view did not get much support here. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambolino Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 if pard is void in diamonds and i bet he is (i mean problem-wise) he should've bid 6d. he should be aware that he created eerie environment by opening his 66 or whatever so he may help. i'd lead cA within a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 btw as for other points I think A ) 6H was definitely bid as a save. B ) If partner has a void he should always double especially on this auction regardless of whether or not he has a trick on the side or notC ) He may also double with a side AK but how can he have a side AK when we have this hand? I think he really rates to have a void somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 I agree with Mike777 entirely. This is a ridiculous problem that Opener has created for us. In theory, the only plausible holding Opener can have, after 6♥, is equal strength in both minors, meaning both minor kings. In that event, I'll lead the club Ace to see from which side we need to attack diamonds. These types of lazy competitive calls irritate me. Not really so much because I find that the person who is lazy is a poor player. What irritates me, I suppose, is that the theory of the game somehow does not automatically result in a charge to the person who is, IMO, being lazy. Somehow, the view is that the 6♦ call was a "great bid" and 6♥ simply "par" bidding, whereas IMO 6♦ (especially with A-K, but also with a void) is as obvious as Stayman and 6♥ as wrong (in the example) as bidding 3NT, instead, with 4441/4414. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Hi Justin This hand raises a number of different topics, the most interesting of which is probably whether partner's 6♥ bid should deny a minor suit void. A case can be made that partner should always make a lead directing bid to show his void on the way to 6♥. In this case, the direct 6♥ bid followed by a double can't be Lightner (partner is presumably showing offensive strength or defensive tricks or whatever) However, I can also see strong arguments suggesting that 6♥ should not deny a minor suit void. If you make a lead directing 6m bid, this might very well convince the opponents to penalty double you in 6♥ rather than competing to 6♠. If 6♠ rates to go down because of a Lightner double at the other table with NO lead directing 6m bid then 6HX rates to score quite poorly. It also needs to be noted that this lead directing bid also gives the opps some extra bidding space. If we want to be really masochistic, we can imaging a a psychic 6m bid without a void trying to scare the opponents into doubling us in 6♥ rather than competing to 6♠. (I've never had the chance to perpetrate anything like this) I have no idea what the best strategy is here. (I suspect that it is probably mixed) However, until I see a convincing argument one way or another I prefer to believe that the double is still Lightner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 As to hrothgar's theory question. Sure, this might be debatable. However, I really dislike this problem: Option #1: Bid 6♦ and defeat 6♠ when it can be set (+100/+50)Option #2: Bid 6♦ and buy it for a good save at 6♥ (-100? -300? -500?)Option #3: Bid 6♥, double, and hope partner guesses right (+100? +200? Or, minus some god-awful hundreds and hundreds that I have to look up on the back side of the bid-card?) I'll always take out insurance, unless the double here calls for a specific minor lead when I pass. WITH that agreement, NOW 6♥ makes sense (when, of course, you have the right void). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 LOLOLOLOL :lol: :D :) Out of curiosity, I just asked my wife (who has about 80 ACBL masterpoints so far) what she would lead after this auction, with her hand. Her initial response was "I don't get the question." I asked here again, "What would you lead against the doubled slam?" Her response: "This is a dumb question. If you wanted a minor lead, you would have bid 6♣ or 6♦, and nothing else makes sense." Now, admittedly, she did not come up with Kx-Kx in the minors. LOLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Richard, that's funny because my "solution" was also a mixed strategy where you bid 6m with and without a void. But I can see merit to a strategy where you never bid 6m. You might also try the exploitable strategy of 6m without a void and 6M with a void against opps you didnt play regularly against, but you would also be able to only do this once per partner otherwise you are not using full disclosure yada yada. BTW there was a great hand in verona where I did actually bid 7D or something with a singleton and they then didnt bid 7S over our 7H save. Anyways, I suspect many would share kens view that you just take out insurance and show your void here but I really think that it is unlikely that partner wont know what to lead when youre 0-5 in the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 My dad has brought up another interesting point just now (we are in a hotel lobby lol), might 6m not be better used as showing a side suit so that partner can judge whether to save? As usual you have the problem that the opps can evaluate better now but so can you. For instance if opener was 0715 he may want to bid 6C. As an added bonus if you bid 6C and you have a diamond void you can X 6S and get a diamond lead for sure this way. Of course it seems contradictory to me to suggest a save from partner and then make a lightner X. Maybe one could employ a strategy of 6m natural, always bid 6H with a void then lightner them and hope partner guesses right (as he is a strong favorite to do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Anyways, I suspect many would share kens view that you just take out insurance and show your void here but I really think that it is unlikely that partner wont know what to lead when youre 0-5 in the minors. I have found in practice he often can't tell which to lead, maybe 20 to 25% of the time. This is especially true with the other side bidding so much, they probably have a secondary minor suit fit on the side, so we might be long in the same minor as partner, or at least have equal length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 At the end of the session I would ask, Partner did any of my bids give you a problem? If so how can we fix it. This may sound naive but I do have a goal of making bids that do not give partner problems so they can focus on defense, declarer play and giving the opp. problems. The opportunity cost, what I give up, is making some bids that may not be the most accurate or best in theory. I hope the gain is more than the loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 My dad has brought up another interesting point just now (we are in a hotel lobby lol), might 6m not be better used as showing a side suit so that partner can judge whether to save? As usual you have the problem that the opps can evaluate better now but so can you. For instance if opener was 0715 he may want to bid 6C. As an added bonus if you bid 6C and you have a diamond void you can X 6S and get a diamond lead for sure this way. Of course it seems contradictory to me to suggest a save from partner and then make a lightner X. Maybe one could employ a strategy of 6m natural, always bid 6H with a void then lightner them and hope partner guesses right (as he is a strong favorite to do). Obviously you should define and utilize the 5NT and 6H bids so you can show any possible void and any possible side suit. Just kidding. In my experience the psychic lead direct has worked every single time (when the goal is to buy the contract I mean). Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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