precision in 4th seat

[rbforster]

I have a basic understanding of how in Standard or 2/1 the typical "preempt" bids of 2M or 3X get replaced with decent or strong hands with good long suits. Especially the 3 level bids are quite strong, maybe a good 16+, since they are fully intending on making their contract.

 

Playing strong club in 4th seat, I naively assume that any 16+ (or whatever) is getting opened 1♣. So for those of you playing strong club (or strong diamond for that matter), what do you use these higher level openings as in 4th seat? What about 2N which isn't really needed as "weak 5/5 minors" in 4th clearly?

[jtfanclub]

Well, I don't know about anybody else, but...

 

I use 2M opening to show a hand with a six card suit that would normally bid 1M-1NT-2M.

I use 3♣ to show 2♣-2♦-3♣ hands, and 3♦ to show 1♦-1NT-3♦ hands

 

Since we use 1M-1NT-2M to show a very poor hand with a 6 card suit or a poor 5332, this allows us to differentiate between the two. The other two auctions no longer exist.

 

Edited to add...the 5/5 in minors becomes very broad range in 3rd seat, basically anything that has no hope of game across a balanced 11. In 4th seat it just keeps the top end.

[Apollo81]

I have a basic understanding of how in Standard or 2/1 the typical "preempt" bids of 2M or 3X get replaced with decent or strong hands with good long suits. Especially the 3 level bids are quite strong, maybe a good 16+, since they are fully intending on making their contract.

 

I don't agree with this at all. In 4th seat those bids are used for hands that don't want to sell out but are too offensive to let the opponents into the auction at the 1-level.

 

Here's what I consider a normal 4th seat 3♣ opener:

♠Kx

♥x

♦Qxx

♣AQJ9xxx

[helene_t]

Basically agree with Apollo. Maybe a 2♥ opening (and 2♦ if that's a preempt in your system) in 4th seat should be slightly stronger that other 4th-seat preempts since if the risk that opps can bid and make 2♠ is high, you don't open.

 

A 1♣ opening in 4th seat is 17+ rather than 16+ in some Precision styles, because of the higher minimum for other constructive openings. Again, you could play

1♣-1♦

1♠*

as 16+ allthough 1♣ otherwise shows 17+, because a 1♠ opening in 4th seat can be slightly lighter than other openings.

[whereagles]

Yeah.. typical 4th seat "preempts" are based on 10-15 and long suits. Responder is invited to raise on a suitable hand

[rbforster]

I guess I had a pretty different idea than what you guys suggest in terms of strength at the 2 level, but this old discussion of 2D/2H/2S in 4th discussed a range of values with 12-14 probably being the average for a 2 level bid on a 6 card suit. Some people ranged down to 10 or up to 16.

 

I would think for the 3 level you would certainly need some extra values along with the extra trump to make it likely you're going plus (which is the point of opening in 4th, afterall). This would suggest some of these hands start overlapping with the strong club opening.

 

I think this probably also depends a lot on your 1/2nd seat opening styles. If you pass with sound hands up to 12 points, partner rates to have a pretty good pass so you need less in terms of values when you bid 2M or 3 of something. Alternatively, if you open light in 1/2nd seat, say a 10-12 NT and 10-15 openers, your partner will have about 3 less points for you and you better have those extra values if you're bidding to make.

 

I could see benefits to opening certain single suited hands with say 16-18 since partner could show more troublesome shapes (like 4♥5m) after 1♣-1♦-? since some of the suit rebids wouldn't be needed for single suited hands.

[Finch]

I would think for the 3 level you would certainly need some extra values along with the extra trump to make it likely you're going plus (which is the point of opening in 4th, afterall). This would suggest some of these hands start overlapping with the strong club opening.

The extra values are usually extra length, not extra high cards.

 

If this is a third seat 2H opening:

 

Kxx

AQJ10xx

Qxx

x

 

then this is a third seat 3H opening:

 

Axx

AQJ10xxx

Qx

x

 

(I don't think I've ever opened 3S in 4th seat. Any hand I construct I would open 1... )

[Chamaco]

I agree with Frances here: most hands one is tempted to open at level 3 can be usually opened at level 1 or 2.

 

My personal idea of opening at 3 level in 4th seat is to have a "Gambling-type" hand, e.g. a semisolid suit (AKQxxxx at worst), and asking pard to bid 3Nt if he's got something on the side. This would rightside the contract

 

Not that I thin this will come up often, but 3-level openings in 4th seat won't come up often anyways, at least this one should bring a higher reward when it works

[dake50]

Not only should one recognise the 'some strong hands open 2+level', but recognise that the responses to 4th-hand 1C should be modified -- e.g. no 12+hcp exist, so expand the 7-11 bids, expand the 5-7 bids. Even different from "3rd hand club" that I've seen published.

What thoughts out there??