4045

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sxxxxhdaxxxckqxxx]133|100|[/hv]

[Gerben42]

I would pass the same hand with ♠J instead of a small one in tempo. Using Ben's "excuse for opening non-opening hand" points, also called Zar it would qualify:

 

Rule of 20 points: 18

Controls: 3

Long vs short suit: 5

 

Zar: 26

 

but really it's highly misleading to open this hand.

 

By the way what's with the new signature? :o

[hrothgar]

Three suiters are open much better on defense than on offensive. The opponents are almost guaranteed to run into a bad split, which takes away much of the incentive to preempt them in the bidding.

 

Playing MOSCITO, this hand is too weak to open. MOSCITO has a lot of gimmicks to systemically support light opening bids. I'll happily open most 5-4-3-1 9 counts and many 5-5-2-1 eight counts. However, we made a systemic decision NOT to open light with balanced or three suited patterns. Holding a balanced hand or a three suiter, will typically require a decent 11 count.

 

I consider opening this in the context of a standard style almost unthinkable.

[inquiry]

I happily open 1♣ and I will rebid that anemic ♠ suit at the one level if I get a chance.

 

Change the club Q to the club JACK and I would still open, change it to the club ten, and well, ok, I would pass. Change the diamond ACE to diamond King, I would pass.

 

I like the shape, just hope partner doesn't preempt in hearts. I like the values in my minors. I like biddign when I have an "excuse". Here I have an easy excuse, I have an opening hand.

 

Goren would evaluate this hand as 12 points (9 hcp, 3 points for the void). That is close to what he would open. Bergen would evalaute this hand as 18 if I counted it correctly, and I think 20 Bergen points are needed for an opening. And Zar points it is clearly 26, and holding 25 ZAR points with 4+ spades is "worth" an opening.

 

So only by ZAR (of these three) is this worthy of an opening. But I really, really like 4450 shape. We have three possible suits for a fit, and if a fit is found, this hand gets a ton of bonus points for the void. So I will open it and will be in a huge minority to do so. I often overbid, however, it should be pointed out. Now you see why.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

first of all you need to specify the system.

Assuming Stsandard American (SAYC similar)

with 2/1 promising a rebid, my anser is no.

 

After a 1C opening I wont face the problems related

to a 2/1 answer, but what is the most likely bidding seq.

 

1C (1) - 1H (2)

1S (3) - 2D (4)

 

(1) ok

(2) what else

(3) ok

(4) forcing to game with a bal. 12 count

with no fit or inv. with 10-12 bal. and

no fit

 

If you make it 5 spades, the 2/1 problematic kicks

in, you will encounter lots of ugly seq., and it is not

worth it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jillybean]

Playing with a never to be seen again, pickup partner; I did open 1♣ I wouldnt try this with everyone. My partner of course took me for a much better hand and wouldn't stop bidding. We played 5♦x= , so no complaints from p this time. The opps had a ♥ game.

 

And this is the disaster that prompted the new signature:

 

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=sqthkj942dq2ckq97&s=skj9762ha85dkjc53]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠

 Pass  2♣    Pass  3♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[jtfanclub]

Four Spades Good, Four Hearts Bad.

 

You know, I keep finding hands that I would open in SA that I would not think of opening in Precision. I think it's a discomfort thing...in SA I'm not comfortable with any response to partner's 1♥ opening. I'm not even really comfortable with responding to partner's 1♠ opening accurately.

 

If I was more proficient with SA, I'd probably feel better about passing this hand.

[Gerben42]

You know, I keep finding hands that I would open in SA that I would not think of opening in Precision. I think it's a discomfort thing...in SA I'm not comfortable with any response to partner's 1♥ opening. I'm not even really comfortable with responding to partner's 1♠ opening accurately.

 

Strange, for me the reverse is true. The whole point of Precision 1-level limited opening bids is that you can lower the minimum. In SA you have to cope with the 20-counts as well and opening light makes life much harder.

[hrothgar]

And this is the disaster that prompted the new signature:

 

Dealer: West Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ QT ♥ KJ942 ♦ Q2 ♣ KQ97 ♠ KJ9762 ♥ A85 ♦ KJ ♣ 53  

 

West  North East  South

 

Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠

Pass  2♣    Pass  3♥

Pass  Pass  Pass 

I was sitting North on this one.

 

In retrospect, I think that I should have accepted the invite and bid 4♥. The QT of Spades revalues a lot after partner's bid.

[jillybean]

I bid 3♥ with slam in mind...

[han]

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest :).

 

It could be just a gameforcing hand where you are not sure yet about the strain you want to play in.

[han]

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

[jillybean]

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest :).

fixed?

[P_Marlowe]

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

same for me, but I just wanted to explain, why

it is a "No".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Playing with a never to be seen again, pickup partner; I did open 1♣ I wouldnt try this with everyone. My partner of course took me for a much better hand and wouldn't stop bidding. We played 5♦x= , so no complaints from p this time. The opps had a ♥ game.

Well Zar helps if you are going to be bidding your 18 hcp games in a minor is difficult to do if neither of the partners with 9 hcp will open. :)

 

I looked it up, Jilly's partner held

 

Ax

xxx

KJTx

JTxx

 

Loses 1S, 1C. HAve to guess the diamond queen correctly, and they can't ruff a club. Actually 4♥ is down for them if you ever lead a club before they knock out the spade ACE. But 3♥ for them is cold, and 4♦/4♣ makes for you if you even if you misguess the ♦Q.

 

This is why you open these things... cause when it is good, it is very very good. Springing this on a pickup partner, however, probably should be avoided. And oh, your partner did stop bidding at 4♦, it was you who took the push over 4♥. A great decision as it turns out. But then you realized that you had "extras" with the heart void. Your hand zoomed on presumed 9 card fit to 26 original zar points, plus misfit points, 3 in hearts, 2 likely in clubs (partner never offered club raise to show four), odds are 2 in spades. That comes to 26+7 = 33, partners biddign suggest around 24/25 = 33+24 = 57, 56 needed for five level contract.

 

One hand, of course, proves nothing. And pass could be a winner. I do note 13 out of 16 played in hearts. Jilly was only person to open this hand. One got to 5♦ when this hand passed intially and doubled 1♥ opening bid on right and then leaped to 5♦ when his partner bid 3♦ over 2♥ raise. Another bid 5♦ after passing twice. RHO opened 1NT, LHO bid 2♦ jacoby and his partner doubled. He bid 5♦ willy nilly.

[han]

Kathryn, 2D does not show slam interest :).

fixed?

Yes, this is perfect.

[jtfanclub]

Strange, for me the reverse is true. The whole point of Precision 1-level limited opening bids is that you can lower the minimum. In SA you have to cope with the 20-counts as well and opening light makes life much harder.

Well, yes, that's how it's supposed to work.

 

I just keep finding myself paralyzed. Suppose the auction goes...

 

P-P-1♥-P back to me.

 

My partner opened 3rd hand, not vulnerable vs. vulnerable. If I pass, partner will have 4 spades and an 18 count and we take all 13 tricks. If I bid 1♠, either we'll end up in 3NT and watch the opponents take the first 5 tricks in spades or else partner will have a ratty 10 count and we'll end up in something doubled for 300 or 500 when the opponents can't make anything either.

 

If I open, and it goes 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦, I have an easy 3♦ call, I think. For a system that's supposed to be a two-way exchange of information, SA seems remarkably bad at describing responder's hand when he doesn't like opener's major.

 

But again, that's probably my lack of skill, not inherent in the system.

[Free]

Only playing MOSCITO I'd open this 1♥ showing my weakest suit (4+♠) :)

[jillybean]

I voted for "no", because this is a clear no to me and the other explanations for no are not valid.

Han, lighten up! Read the sub title of this thread, the poll is quite meaningless but hopefully creates a few smiles. This game is sometimes taken far too seriously :)

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sa6h732dkjt3cjt84&s=s9753hda987ckq765]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♣

 Pass  1♦    1♥    2♦

 2♥    3♦    3♥    Pass

 Pass  4♦    Pass  Pass

 4♥    Pass  Pass  5♦

 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass

 

[goobers]

Wow, north sure bid a lot......... (edit: never mind, I didn't really think as I typed that)

 

And EW sure took their sweet time crawling to 4H

[Fluffy]

I was sitting North on this one.

 

In retrospect, I think that I should have accepted the invite and bid 4♥. The QT of Spades revalues a lot after partner's bid.

Partner had an opening and even then you had around 3.7 top losers, what is so wrong with playing in 3♥?

[awm]

On the hand that started this thread...

 

If you open and find partner with a good fit for one of your suits, it will normally work great. If you open and find partner with a bunch of hearts, you're headed for a really big disaster.

 

My feeling is though, that if you pass and partner has a bunch of hearts, you will often get out a level or two lower (and also without a double). If you pass and partner has a fit for you, it's still pretty rare that the hand passes out (usually someone has some hearts and a few points given I have void). This allows you to usually get back in a with a takeout double that basically shows this exact hand type and gets you to your game or whatever. In fact the "pass first" route is fairly likely to draw a double of your making game when you bid this way!

 

So even though the size of the loss is substantially more for "missing a game" than it is for "playing a level or two higher in something that wasn't making" (although this ignores the possibility of opponents doubling on a misfit auction where they seem to have surprisingly many points), it's not clear that you can't get to game by passing. The initial pass (followed by bidding your head off if opponents bid hearts or taking it slow if partner bids hearts) seems like a win/win scenario.

 

Yes I know you can construct particular examples where if you don't open this junk in first seat the hand passes out and you have game. I just don't think it's likely.

[keylime]

I open 1♠ with Larry, but we have a limited bid canape method so we're not overly constrained (suit quality? we don't need no stupid suit quality!).

[han]

Han, lighten up!

I'm as light as it-tastes-like-butter-but-it-isn't but I still thought I'd give you my opnion on a valid bridge question. Look, more than 14% is opening this hand.

[Guest Jlall]

don't open plz unless you and your partners have agreed to open this and partner will not GF with normal GFs.