Hand from Illini Regional

[redbird97]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=saj10xxhxxdaqxxxcx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

 

Auction goes as follows (IMPS)

 

W N E S

- P 1h 1s

2h 2s(1) 2nt(2) ?

 

1 2S is a non constructive raise.

2 2NT is alerted and you are told forces responder to bid 3c and now allows opener to make some special game tries.

[redbird97]

I discussed this hand with Mike Cappaletti Jr. and am now convinced that 4S is the winning action. I voted for 3S here because thats what I bid at the table. His point is give partner K of Diamonds and Q of spades and you are on a hook for game.

 

I bid 3S for the following reason, I know it is the opps hand and I was trying to jam their auction(taking away their game try) by bidding 3S. I was playing against expert opps but felt that they would be reluctant to carry on to 4H without knowing what each of them held....

[Guest Jlall]

This is a normal 4S bid.

[redbird97]

The good news is 3S did end the auction. The opps collected 100 and our teammates collected 620 in 4H. Capps key point on this hand is he asked me if the opps bid 4h, what are you going to do? I said bid 4S. He says and is right that its giving the opps a two way shot on you. He says 4S is not likely to get sawed off either, well not as likely as if I bid over their 4H bid...

[jdonn]

Actually I think this is one of the rare times bidding 3 is ok planning to bid 4 next time if they bid game. This is because for one thing they might not even bid game since they aren't in a GF yet, and for another I think they will always double 4♠ and never bid 5♥ no matter when I bid it, so I don't think I lose anything.

 

I know people say not to do this so that I can force them to guess to bid 5 or not as soon as possible, but as long as my assumption that they will never bid 5 anyway is true (opener seems about to invite game only) I don't see how 3 first can be wrong.

 

I think Capp is nuts saying 4♠ won't get sawed off. The opponents were about to try for game, and can see you are w/r, if they don't double you they stink. But I admit vs opponents who you think might not double you then 4♠ right away is looking good. And the K of diamonds Q of spades thing is silly to me, since it's the best hand humanly possible for partner, 95+% of the time 4♠ will have little or no play, at least opposite when I consider a less-than-constructive raise at this vul, and even opposite those perfect cards you need a finesse and probably a diamond break.

[mike777]

edit

not sure who is bidding what here.

[Guest Jlall]

Actually I think this is one of the rare times bidding 3 is ok planning to bid 4 next time if they bid game. This is because for one thing they might not even bid game since they aren't in a GF yet, and for another I think they will always double 4♠ and never bid 5♥ no matter when I bid it, so I don't think I lose anything.

 

I know people say not to do this so that I can force them to guess to bid 5 or not as soon as possible, but as long as my assumption that they will never bid 5 anyway is true (opener seems about to invite game only) I don't see how 3 first can be wrong.

 

I think Capp is nuts saying 4♠ won't get sawed off. The opponents were about to try for game, and can see you are w/r, if they don't double you they stink. But I admit vs opponents who you think might not double you then 4♠ right away is looking good. And the K of diamonds Q of spades thing is silly to me, since it's the best hand humanly possible for partner, 95+% of the time 4♠ will have little or no play, at least opposite when I consider a less-than-constructive raise at this vul, and even opposite those perfect cards you need a finesse and probably a diamond break.

you might make a game too... how can you not even try?

 

why do they have to double because they tried for game lol? they have no idea what you have.

[Fluffy]

This looked to me as a 3♠ bid at first, but I ain't so sure any more after reading.

[gwnn]

When in doubt, bid 4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Pass.

 

I would have shown the 2-suiter, but this is

certainly non standard.

I take it, that 2S showed just 3 card support

or 4-3-3-3 shape, and I am not really prepared

to go to the 4 level, hence pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

4♠ - might even make. Or not - but how do the opponents know that? They might settle for 5♥ now which I dont mind as now they have taken the last guess.

[redbird97]

In terms of showing a two suiter, different players have different agreements. My partners and I play Good/Bad Michaels Q's. With intermediate hands, we prefer to bid our suits.

[Apollo81]

If 2♠ is non constructive, how do you show a good 3-card raise like a 3334 10 count?

 

If the answer to the above is "double", you're playing a non-standard method. Since your 2♠ is weaker on average than a standard 2♠, I would only bid 3♠ with the given hand.

 

If the answer to the above is "bid 2♠" then I can buy the 4♠ call suggested by some of the posters, but I admit that it would only occur to me to bid 3♠ at the table.

[jdonn]

Actually I think this is one of the rare times bidding 3 is ok planning to bid 4 next time if they bid game. This is because for one thing they might not even bid game since they aren't in a GF yet, and for another I think they will always double 4♠ and never bid 5♥ no matter when I bid it, so I don't think I lose anything.

 

I know people say not to do this so that I can force them to guess to bid 5 or not as soon as possible, but as long as my assumption that they will never bid 5 anyway is true (opener seems about to invite game only) I don't see how 3 first can be wrong.

 

I think Capp is nuts saying 4♠ won't get sawed off. The opponents were about to try for game, and can see you are w/r, if they don't double you they stink. But I admit vs opponents who you think might not double you then 4♠ right away is looking good. And the K of diamonds Q of spades thing is silly to me, since it's the best hand humanly possible for partner, 95+% of the time 4♠ will have little or no play, at least opposite when I consider a less-than-constructive raise at this vul, and even opposite those perfect cards you need a finesse and probably a diamond break.

you might make a game too... how can you not even try?

 

why do they have to double because they tried for game lol? they have no idea what you have.

Yeah I'm sure it makes game....it might go for 500 into the opponents' partscore too, what's the point? What do you think a nonconstructive raise looks like?

 

And yes I reiterate, if they don't double you almost automatically they stink. They know at this vul you are just going to randomly bid 4♠ on garbage, or they should know.

 

The more I think about it the more I hate 4♠. I have no reason to think they will either bid or make 4♥, and good luck with that if you think 4♠ will make, why does partner's random king have to be in diamonds instead of clubs? I have 2 sure and one possible tricks on defense, and partner is going to have 0 1 or 2. I want to change my vote to 3♠ and pass.

[SoTired]

If partner is making a non-constructive raise, than for partner to have the ♠Q and ♦K is assigning a perfect hand to partner, and requiring perfect distribution and for partner and the ♠K onside. NEVER HAPPENS IN REAL LIFE.

 

In truth, opps will double 4S since they were only inviting 4H and will not bid 5H, and they won't let you play 4S undoubled.

 

With all due respect to Mike Jr., I think he is wrong here. I voted for 3S and I stick with that answer.

[mr1303]

Is 3D not a reasonable choice to involve partner in later high level bidding decisions?

 

I think it is, so that's what I'll try. I might be tempted by 4D if that shows a diamond suit, and not a splinter

[han]

A most interesting thread!

[whereagles]

4♠ is a bit of a poker bid, but in practice it's one of those bids that work better than it should.

 

I would stick to the unlucky expert's scientific bid of 3♦...

[jgo]

I think our teammates were +680 in 4H, though best defense holds it to 5.

 

I prefer intermediate/good 2-suited bids; I got more green cards than any other for a reason.

 

-Jim O'Neil