Game tries after a 1NT opening

[EricK]

If the bidding starts 1M-2M or 1m-1M-2M many pairs have methods to invite game while at the same time directing partner as to what cards are likely to be useful (there are long suit game tries, short suit game tries, help suit game tries, two-way game tries and probably more).

 

If the bidding starts 1NT, however, I have never seen any methods which attempt the same thing. The trouble is, of course, that Stayman and transfers don't actually let both partners know that a fit has been identified. Eg after 1NT 2♥ 2♠, opener knows if there is a major suit fit but responder doesn't. So responder can not make a specific game try for spades he can only make a general game tries with 2NT or 3♠ - neither of which tells partner what cards are useful. Or after 1NT 2♣ 2♠, responder knows whether there is a fit but opener doesn't. So again, any game tries by responder are general rather than specific.

 

How big an issue is this? Obviously it mightn't be noticeable as an issue if everybody is using similar methods and the same NT range as you will be missing the same games as everybody else (or getting into the same bad games).

 

Is it possible to design methods which allow for this sort of game try without losing too much on other hands?

 

p.s. The hand which made me think of this was one in which responder had 6-4 in the majors, 3 small in one minor and a void in other and only 5 or 6 points. If partner had strength in the void suit game was atrocious if he had weakness in the void suit, game was excellent.

[Free]

Playing HEEMAN, we can show basically any invitational 4-5 hands without a problem. It sacrifices stayman for a 2♣ puppet to 2♦ so we're able to show the difference between 4M-5m and 5M-4m, and for being able to show both invitational and GF hands at the same time.

 

With both Majors we transfer to ♥ (shows 4+♥) followed by 2♠ which shows inv+ with both Majors. Now opener will show minimum or maximum and if he has a fit for either Major or not. You can now transfer to ♠ to either signoff or bid game.

 

Problem with all these hands is that you can't show your short suit while inviting, only your long ones... So the trials aren't perfect, but it works most of the time. (I don't think you can show all hand types on a safe level anyway, so most of the time you need to know the long suits)

[kenrexford]

One technique that I have used and still use (part of) with one partner:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-2red-P-2♠ shows 5-card spades and game invitational (unbalanced). Opener can pass, or he can bid 2NT to ask for clarification. Responder next bids his 4-card suit (could be 5♠/4♥ if 2♦ was Opener's reply to Stayman). You lose 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♥-P-2♠ as a four-card invitational (needed if 1NT-P-2NT is artificial), such that you may miss a 4-4 spade fit when Opener has a minimum with 4-4 in the majors and Responder has a minimal game invite with four spades and not four hearts (if Opener can accept the game invite, he can accept by bidding 3♠). You also lose whatever 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2♠ would otherwise mean.

 

1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥-P-2♠ as same thing, but with hearts. 2NT, again, an asking bid. If Responder has 5♥/4♠, he will rebid 3♥ after Opener's 2NT. You lose ability to play 2♠ when Responder has 5♥/4♠ (Opener cannot pass).

[han]

I play both of the gadgets that Ken suggests and I like them. They are also somewhat necessary when you play transfer extensions (see Justin's blog).

[hrothgar]

If the bidding starts 1M-2M or 1m-1M-2M many pairs have methods to invite game while at the same time directing partner as to what cards are likely to be useful (there are long suit game tries, short suit game tries, help suit game tries, two-way game tries and probably more).

 

....

 

Is it possible to design methods which allow for this sort of game try without losing too much on other hands?

Couple points worth considering here:

 

1. A 1NT opening is pretty tightly limited in terms of strength. In turn, this decreases the number of occasions where different types of game invitation bids add much value. Coupled with this, your game invitational sequences will often aid the defense. There are doubtlessly a few sequences where a shape based game invite would be valuable, however, an argument can be made that the costs of the approach outweight the benefits.

 

2. Lots of folks play strong NTs and use the bulk of their exploratory sequences to investigate slam. You might want to look at some weak NT structures for examples.

 

3. I would expect that this type of approach would be most useful in the context of a 2-way stayman type system. If you play that 2♣ promises game invitational values, then you have considerable latitude to build fit based game tries into your system.

[jdonn]

The way most people do it seems logical to me. 1M p 2M is like a 5 point range and not descriptive about outside shape, in that for example responder could be short in any sidesuit. 1NT is a 3 point range that is quite descriptive as to shape (with a little more description added when there is no superaccept).

[kenrexford]

2♣ as invitational+ Stayman would help, if you submarine'd Opener's rebids.

 

For example:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-?

 

2♦ = 4 hearts

2♥ = 4 spades

2♠ = no 4-card major

 

Now, Responder can agree trumps by "completing the transfer," which would be forcing one-round, perhaps. Or, alternatively, completing the transfer could be the only call to deny that suit, with any other call being a game try of some variety.

 

The problem with most structures, as far as game tries go, is in identifying an assured focus suit and being able to isolate all calls as in agreement of that suit, whether Opener makes the descriptive call or Responder makes the descriptive call.

[pclayton]

2♣ as invitational+ Stayman would help, if you submarine'd Opener's rebids.

 

For example:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-?

 

2♦ = 4 hearts

2♥ = 4 spades

2♠ = no 4-card major

 

Now, Responder can agree trumps by "completing the transfer," which would be forcing one-round, perhaps. Or, alternatively, completing the transfer could be the only call to deny that suit, with any other call being a game try of some variety.

 

The problem with most structures, as far as game tries go, is in identifying an assured focus suit and being able to isolate all calls as in agreement of that suit, whether Opener makes the descriptive call or Responder makes the descriptive call.

I played this with a 10-13 NT structure. If responder accepted with 2 major, it set trump and asked controls. You could build a relay around this I would think.

[han]

1. A 1NT opening is pretty tightly limited in terms of strength. In turn, this decreases the number of occasions where different types of game invitation bids add much value. Coupled with this, your game invitational sequences will often aid the defense. There are doubtlessly a few sequences where a shape based game invite would be valuable, however, an argument can be made that the costs of the approach outweight the benefits.

I recall reading a computer simulation in Bridge Today about this topic. The conclusion was that the natural invite (say 1NT-2NT) is only useful on a very small HCP range (I believe 8.5-9.0 points on some scale). Stronger hands are better off bidding game, weaker hands (without a 4-card major) are better off passing.

 

I don't have the article myself, I think it was published about 5-6 years ago. I believe that it didn't even take some of the negative effects of the invite (opponents know more about opener's hand) into effect. The playing of the hands was done double-dummy (which isn't perfect, but at least it is objective).

 

At first this result seems odd. After all, 8+17 should play better than 9+15, so why pass a poorish 8 when you bid game with an average 9? This is because if you invite with 8 you will often play 2NT with 8+15 where you would much rather play 1NT.

[EricK]

The issue I am highlighting doesn't really apply if responder is balanced. I am more concerned with an unbalanced responding hand where, depending on the distribution of high cards on opener's hand, there might be a load of wasted values or, conversely, you might be "playing with a 30 point deck".

 

Imagine a distributional 15/16 point opener opposite a balanced 7/8 point hand with a major fit. Here the bidding might go 1M-2M-game try-accept/decline. Now transfer 8 points from the strong hand to the weak hand and the problem I highlighted arises.

 

It seems silly that what are essentially the same hands are easy to bid in one of the scenarios and difficult in the other. Maybe the problem is that a 1NT opening takes up too much room to allow for accurate bidding.

[mike777]

Game tries over a strong nt opening? Who needs stinking game tries over nt.

4h or 4s or 3nt=game try.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

 

I play many of the methods(with my own versions) from the Picture Bidding Book by Alvin Roth.

 

1NT-2C-2any-3 level bids(except a direct raise shows 'shortness') We can find quite nice 4-3 Major fits and some 5-4 and 5-5 mnors fits.

 

1NT-Jacoby and a new minor shows 5-5+ suits with invitational values.

 

My own toy is 1NT-3D=5-5 majors inv. to game in a major. Partner is not allowed to bid 3NT. If I happen to have the HCP values for game, I will bid 3NT or raise with 6 card support. You can bid games based on fit and not raw HCPs. You can also play at 3M with a misfit.

 

Roth uses 1NT-2C-2M to show the bid major and deny the other major.

1NT-2C-2NT=4-4 majors(min.) and 3C*=4-4 majors(max.)

 

I borrowed a Stayman is Doubt method from a previous partner. You can show a 4333 major fit and give partner a chance to choose game 'knowing' that we have a 4-4 major fit and that I am 4333.

 

Roth also uses Stayman and a follow up of bidding a major as forcing one round. You can show an unbalanced invite with a 5 card major. With game values, he bids Jacoby and rebids 2S* after a heart transfer or 2NT* after a spade transfer to put us in a game force auction.

 

Regards,

Robert

[lowerline]

One technique that I have used and still use (part of) with one partner:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-2red-P-2♠ shows 5-card spades and game invitational (unbalanced).  Opener can pass, or he can bid 2NT to ask for clarification.  Responder next bids his 4-card suit (could be 5♠/4♥ if 2♦ was Opener's reply to Stayman).  You lose 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♥-P-2♠ as a four-card invitational (needed if 1NT-P-2NT is artificial), such that you may miss a 4-4 spade fit when Opener has a minimum with 4-4 in the majors and Responder has a minimal game invite with four spades and not four hearts (if Opener can accept the game invite, he can accept by bidding 3♠).  You also lose whatever 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2♠ would otherwise mean.

 

1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥-P-2♠ as same thing, but with hearts.  2NT, again, an asking bid.  If Responder has 5♥/4♠, he will rebid 3♥ after Opener's 2NT.  You lose ability to play 2♠ when Responder has 5♥/4♠ (Opener cannot pass).

After 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT, what does responder do without a 4crd side suit (5332), assuming a rebid of 2NT would have shown clubs?

 

Steven

[kenrexford]

One technique that I have used and still use (part of) with one partner:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-2red-P-2♠ shows 5-card spades and game invitational (unbalanced).  Opener can pass, or he can bid 2NT to ask for clarification.  Responder next bids his 4-card suit (could be 5♠/4♥ if 2♦ was Opener's reply to Stayman).  You lose 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♥-P-2♠ as a four-card invitational (needed if 1NT-P-2NT is artificial), such that you may miss a 4-4 spade fit when Opener has a minimum with 4-4 in the majors and Responder has a minimal game invite with four spades and not four hearts (if Opener can accept the game invite, he can accept by bidding 3♠).  You also lose whatever 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2♠ would otherwise mean.

 

1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥-P-2♠ as same thing, but with hearts.  2NT, again, an asking bid.  If Responder has 5♥/4♠, he will rebid 3♥ after Opener's 2NT.  You lose ability to play 2♠ when Responder has 5♥/4♠ (Opener cannot pass).

After 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT, what does responder do without a 4crd side suit (5332), assuming a rebid of 2NT would have shown clubs?

 

Steven

1NT-P-2♦(transfer)-P-

2♥-P-2♠(unbalanced GT in hearts)-P-

2NT(asking)-P-?

 

3♣ shows 5♥/4-5♣, game invitational

3♦ shows 5♥/4-5♦, game invitational

3♥ would be:

(a.) 5♥/4♠, game invitational, or

(b.) Some 6331 with hearts, invitational (the choice depends upon preference and other systemic bids)

 

With some 5332 with hearts, you do not bid 2♠ initially. You transfer and then bid 2NT.

 

This style forfeits playing in 2♠ when you have 5♥/4♠ and invitational, or 2NT for that matter. The solutions for that problem are as follows:

 

1. Give up on Garbage Stayman. I hate that solution.

2. Transfer and then bid 2NT. Partner can bid a 4-card spade suit if he can accept the game try. I prefer this solution.

3. As mentioned, transfer and then bid 2♠. This solution bites, in my opinion, as you lose playing 2NT and 2♠, both.

4. Treat the hand as both majors. When you bid 2NT, partner, if accepting, can bid 3♥ to suggest a heart contract if you happened to be 5♥/4♠.

5. Combine 2. and 4. above as judgment directs you.

[lowerline]

One technique that I have used and still use (part of) with one partner:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-2red-P-2♠ shows 5-card spades and game invitational (unbalanced).  Opener can pass, or he can bid 2NT to ask for clarification.  Responder next bids his 4-card suit (could be 5♠/4♥ if 2♦ was Opener's reply to Stayman).  You lose 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♥-P-2♠ as a four-card invitational (needed if 1NT-P-2NT is artificial), such that you may miss a 4-4 spade fit when Opener has a minimum with 4-4 in the majors and Responder has a minimal game invite with four spades and not four hearts (if Opener can accept the game invite, he can accept by bidding 3♠).  You also lose whatever 1NT-P-2♣-P-2♦-P-2♠ would otherwise mean.

 

1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥-P-2♠ as same thing, but with hearts.  2NT, again, an asking bid.  If Responder has 5♥/4♠, he will rebid 3♥ after Opener's 2NT.  You lose ability to play 2♠ when Responder has 5♥/4♠ (Opener cannot pass).

After 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT, what does responder do without a 4crd side suit (5332), assuming a rebid of 2NT would have shown clubs?

 

Steven

1NT-P-2♦(transfer)-P-

2♥-P-2♠(unbalanced GT in hearts)-P-

2NT(asking)-P-?

 

3♣ shows 5♥/4-5♣, game invitational

3♦ shows 5♥/4-5♦, game invitational

3♥ would be:

(a.) 5♥/4♠, game invitational, or

(b.) Some 6331 with hearts, invitational (the choice depends upon preference and other systemic bids)

 

With some 5332 with hearts, you do not bid 2♠ initially. You transfer and then bid 2NT.

 

This style forfeits playing in 2♠ when you have 5♥/4♠ and invitational, or 2NT for that matter. The solutions for that problem are as follows:

 

1. Give up on Garbage Stayman. I hate that solution.

2. Transfer and then bid 2NT. Partner can bid a 4-card spade suit if he can accept the game try. I prefer this solution.

3. As mentioned, transfer and then bid 2♠. This solution bites, in my opinion, as you lose playing 2NT and 2♠, both.

4. Treat the hand as both majors. When you bid 2NT, partner, if accepting, can bid 3♥ to suggest a heart contract if you happened to be 5♥/4♠.

5. Combine 2. and 4. above as judgment directs you.

I'm looking for a way to combine this with second round transfers (after Jacoby). Since 1nt-2♦-2♥-2NT is a transfer to ♣, I can't bid this with a 5332. Giving up on Garbage Stayman can solve this, but I don't like that either.

After 1nt-2♦-2♥-2♠ I could play 2NT as a natural minimum (possibly missing a ♠-fit) and 3♣ as a GF relay. Or maybe I should just upgrade invitational to GF...

I know Meckwell play these second round transfers, but I don't know how they solve this problem.

 

Steven

[Fluffy]

If the bidding starts 1M-2M or 1m-1M-2M many pairs have methods to invite game while at the same time directing partner as to what cards are likely to be useful (there are long suit game tries, short suit game tries, help suit game tries, two-way game tries and probably more).

 

If the bidding starts 1NT, however, I have never seen any methods which attempt the same thing.

its not the same to have a 15-17 balanced opposite, than a 6-9 any distribution, or a 11-14 any distribution (wide variety)

 

Some people just give up limit bids after 1NT opening, I don't lie it, but I think they have a point.