Borrowed from other thread

[mike777]

Team match with not very good opposition (if it matters).

 

You deal and pick up NV/NV the following beauty: Dealer: South

Vul: None

Scoring: IMP

♠ void

♥ AKT9x

♦ KJ87xx

♣ Kx

 

Borrowed from other thread.

 

1) What is your opening bid in your style of 2/1

2) partner responds one spade, your rebid and plan now?

[han]

1D

2H

[pbleighton]

1D

2H

 

Agree.

 

Peter

[mikeh]

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

 

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

[jdonn]

I'll agree with 1♦ then 2♥ but actually I don't mind 1♥ at all. The heart suit is very good and diamonds relatively average, and though I hate to let the possibility of competition that has not yet occured impact me greatly, the fact I am void in spades is not to be ignored.

[mike777]

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

 

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

[mike777]

1D

2H

 

Agree.

 

Peter

I knew you would. :)

[bid_em_up]

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

 

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

 

EDIT:I will rephrase this last sentence for further clarification.

 

Meaning it is no longer guaranteed to be a strong hand in terms of having approximately 17 hcp, but it is now a distributional hand that will be 5M/6+m with appropriate playing strength.

[mike777]

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

 

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand, but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

It does? ok never heard that one before, what does he do with a 2 suiter and 17 hcp?

[pbleighton]

I knew you would.

 

Would you, if you were playing relatively standard 2/1, where a opening bid showed 12/strong 11?

 

I realize that this requires an act of imagination on your part :)

 

Peter

[pbleighton]

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

 

I completely disagree. You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it.

 

Peter

[jdonn]

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

[bid_em_up]

3H cancels the "reverse".  Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional  (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

Really?

 

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x

 

This hand isn't the 17 or so hcp that a reverse normally promises, but I am fairly certain that you would open it 1D and rebid hearts, no?

 

It has nothing extra, to speak of, and is pretty much a bare minumum, but it does have good suit qualities and texture.

 

Would you do it on, say:

 

x Kxxxx AKJxxx x

 

This is closer, I would sometimes, but you may not. (Or you would sometimes, but I might not).

 

In either case, we both (I think) are saying the same thing. The 3H call cancels a "real" reverse in terms of having 17+ hcp, and instead implies 5-6 with good suits, and not as many hcp (although it could still have 17+). It could also be minimum hcp though, imo (see first example).

[jdonn]

Many people would open the first example with the king of diamonds less, so it certainly has something extra. And the second example is a totally absurd reverse that I would never make.

 

Yes we agree it can be lighter in highcards than a reverse would otherwise be, but where I stop agreeing is where you seem to be saying any 5-6 hand worth opening is good enough to reverse.

[bid_em_up]

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

 

I completely disagree. You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it.

 

Peter

There once was a time, where the reverse always showed the extra hcp. From what I have both seen and been told by others, this is no longer the de facto expert standard. While it may not be "your" style, there is absolutely nothing to disagree with. It just isn't the way you play it.

 

More and more players, have migrated to the view of distribution is more important than hcp, and this is the trade-off of being able to show distribitution at lower levels that had you opened it 1H then had to rebid diamonds. At a minimum, you will be at 4D before you have shown the 6th diamond (if you ever get to show it).

[bid_em_up]

Many people would open the first example with the king of diamonds less, so it certainly has something extra. And the second example is a totally absurd reverse that I would never make.

 

Yes we agree it can be lighter in highcards than a reverse would otherwise be, but where I stop agreeing is where you seem to be saying any 5-6 hand worth opening is good enough to reverse.

So you would do it on:

 

x AJ10xx Axxxxx x

 

But not on:

 

x Kxxxx AKxxxx x

 

Did I read that right? What if it was:

 

x Axxxx AKxxxx x?

 

I dont think I said I would do it on any 5/6 hand. I only said that it cancels the reverse in terms of having to have 17+ hcp. You inferred the 2nd part, from where I do not know.

[han]

3H cancels the "reverse".  Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional  (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

Really?

 

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x

 

This hand isn't the 17 or so hcp that a reverse normally promises, but I am fairly certain that you would open it 1D and rebid hearts, no?

 

It has nothing extra, to speak of, and is pretty much a bare minumum, but it does have good suit qualities and texture.

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x is a bare minimum? That's crazy, you have a slam if partner has as little as Axxx Kx xxxx xxx. Take away the ace and you have a game. Bare minimums don't do that.

 

As rare as it is, the quote from jdonn is as clear as it can get.

[jdonn]

So you would do it on:

 

x AJ10xx Axxxxx x

 

But not on:

 

x Kxxxx AKxxxx x

 

Did I read that right?

No

 

I dont think I said I would do it on any 5/6 hand.  I only said that it cancels the reverse in terms of having to have 17+ hcp.  You inferred the 2nd part, from where I do not know.

What do you think 'cancels the reverse' means? Or should I have inferred some new imaginary minimum you didn't mention which is less than that for a 'standard' reverse but more than that for an opening bid?

 

Hannie's post says it all.

[Guest Jlall]

1D-2H

[mike777]

Ok so it seems I am being told no real expert would consider opening 1D and rebidding 2D on this hand over one spade let alone these other examples with even less hcp.

[bid_em_up]

You know, some people seem to enjoy attempting to pick something apart when there is no reason to do so.

 

It IS a bare minimum in terms of HCP. It has 12. Thats fairly minimum in terms of HCP, no matter how you attempt to slice it. That comes nowhere close to the 17 or so that the reverse originally implied. Sorry that I did not explicity spell this out.

 

It is not a bare minimum in terms of playing strength. And although I said, "it is a bare minimum", in context, it is implied that I am referring to HCP, not playing strength.

 

"Cancels the reverse" means it is no longer guaranteed to be the 17 hcp hand, and is more distributional/playing strength oriented. I do believe I said that already also.

 

Geez.

[the hog]

"Cancels the reverse?" I never heard of that either and suspect this is a home grown notion.

Fwiw I would open 1H and rebid 2D.

[jdonn]

Tell me where I am misquoting (mis-paraphrasing). You said rebidding the second suit cancels the reverse in terms of high card points. I took that to be a claim that if you have this shape then as long as you can open the bidding you can reverse, since the HCP requirements for a reverse don't apply. It STILL looks to me like that's what you meant, and it came across that way. Anyway so be it, we certainly are both aware that the original problem hand is good enough to reverse after opening 1♦.

[bid_em_up]

Tell me where I am misquoting (mis-paraphrasing). You said rebidding the second suit cancels the reverse in terms of high card points.

Well, when you are 5-6, surely you are not saying that by rebidding 2H and then 3H, you still must have the 17 the 2H bid originally implied, are you? Of course not. The rebid of 3H cancels the reverse in terms of HCP requirements, partner should no longer be expecting this. He should be execting good playing strength and 5/6+ distribution instead, but the hand can be minimum in terms of HCP. Agreed?

 

I took that to be a claim that if you have this shape then as long as you can open the bidding you can reverse, since the HCP requirements for a reverse don't apply.

Show me where I said that. You inferred it. All I ever said in the original post was that it cancels the reverse and shows 5/6. You assumed that I meant it was any 5/6.

 

It STILL looks to me like that's what you meant, and it came across that way.

Sorry, I was at work when posting. I will try to be more specific next time.

 

Anyway so be it, we certainly are both aware that the original problem hand is good enough to reverse after opening 1♦.

If you say so, I've forgotten what it was now. :)

[Guest Jlall]

Ok so it seems I am being told no real expert would consider opening 1D and rebidding 2D on this hand over one spade let alone these other examples with even less hcp.

I would bid 1D-2D with one of bid_em_up's example hands (x Kxxxx AKJxxx x I believe).