basic takeout double question

[gdawg01]

Hi all!

 

I have a fairly basic takeout double question. The bidding sequenc shown is : LHO, Pard, RHO, you.

 

1C - P - 1H - X

 

1) What are the various ways of playing this double? Does it show atleast 4-4 in the unbid suits, or simply 4+ in the other major UNLESS the bidding was 1C - P - 1D - X?

 

2) What point range is typically implied? Is this llike a negative double in Standard American, thus promising 6+ pts or more like an opening hand? I would imagine that with something like 1H - P - 1S - X, the hand would have to be stronger since you force pard to bid at the 2 level.

 

3) As opener in this hand, would a redouble show 3+ heart support / can it be used to show something else?

 

Thanks for your inputs, and sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence!

 

-G

[mikeh]

1. The strength shown is partly a question of style, including the meaning assigned to such alternative calls as 1N or a cuebid of either of the opps's suits.

 

Generally, however, I think the consensus view would be that the double shows both unbid suits (4=4 or better) with at least a minimum opening hand. Especially white v red and with extra shape, the bid might be a little less than an opening hand, if you play 1N as natural, a good 15 to 18...btw, while there are many who play 1N here as takeout (a weak takeout double) my experience suggests that the majority of experts use it as natural, so I'd advise that approach.

 

The more power one has, the more one can depart from the fairly strict shape requirements of a minimum takeout double.. just as one does with a 2nd seat, direct takeout double. But I would want substantial, really substantial extras before not having 4-4 in the unbid suits, and with such extras I might well have a 1N bid anyway.

 

2. I think my answer to 1 dealt with this

 

3. Many players do use redouble by opener as a support redouble: I am a user of this convention myself, but you cannot assume that any particular partner plays it without discussion.

 

BTW, there are no intelligence-insulting questions in the B/I thread. If you've been reading other threads, you will see that some of us (me, included) can get quite pointed in our comments, and that can even happen here...but, I hope, only between the more experienced posters.... never, I hope, aimed at an original post.

 

I wish a forum like this had been available 30 years ago... altho my way of learning back then did have the advantage of increasing my tolerance for beer :)

[gdawg01]

Thanks for the reply, Mike.

It seems that the support redouble and a direct raise can be used to distinguish between 3 and 4+ card support ; maybe keep the direct raise for 4+ card support and the redouble for exactly 3 card support..

[firmit]

Previous post regarding Sandwich position

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=18436&hl=

[gdawg01]

Thanks, firmit!

[jtfanclub]

Please keep in mind, I'm nowhere near the level that mikeh is.

 

2) What point range is typically implied? Is this llike a negative double in Standard American, thus promising 6+ pts or more like an opening hand? I would imagine that with something like 1H - P - 1S  - X, the hand would have to be stronger since you force pard to bid at the 2 level.

 

I generally play it as potentially weaker, perhaps a 9 count.

 

Points against Xing with a weak hand...

 

Being Vulnerable (can get penalized heavily)

Playing in IMPs (the small swing often isn't worth the risk)

Being an unpassed hand (tough to tell the upper limit)

Points in a bid suit, especially the first suit (they'll get finessed).

 

Points for Xing with a weak hand...

 

Being Not Vulnerable (can't be penalized much)

Playing in Match Points (small swings are everything)

Being a passed hand (nice to have an upper limit)

"purity", having good strength in your suits.

4441 hand with a singleton in their second suit. After 1♣-P-1♥, your partner could have lots of clubs with no good bid to make. It's nice to have at least tolerence for their first suit.

 

At any rate, if you X, you should expect your partner to support either suit at the 2 level with 4 cards, even without many points. If you think that could get you too high, then don't X.

[BebopKid]

A double in this situation would show exactly 4/4 in the other two suits, 10+ points, preferably 13, but assume a King from your partner if you need to.

 

Or, a double could be any shape with 16+ HCP. which another bid by doubler shows when it comes back around.

 

A redouble by opener I think is not an option.