slam suitable min

[Guest Jlall]

Imps, you hold Ax Kxxx xxx KQxx. You open 1C, partner bids 1D, and you bid 1H (this is your style, I don't care what you think of this style). Partner bids 1S, natural 1 round force. You bid 1N. Partner bids 4N.

 

1) What do you bid?

2) Do you agree with 1N rather than 2D?

[inquiry]

I will pass.. yes this is a fine looking 12 hcp, but I lack T's and 9's, I have doubleton ACE in one of partners suits and three small in the other, and no source of tricks outside of his suits.

 

I guess if 1♥ was my style (it is not), I would know what 1♠ promised besides natural and 1NT force. For example, how would 1♠ differ from 2♠, and what other option did partner have to the natural and invitiation 4NT. Does partner need 5+♦ for this auction? How "light" can I be for this auction. Would a shapely 10 hcp count? Do I only open some 11 counts when balanced?

 

I guess we could play with the constraints such that I might try for slam wiht this hand, but realistically, at the table after 4NT on this auction, I am done.

[Echognome]

I pass. Despite my hand being nice and controlly, I still have a minimum opener and partner has only invited slam.

 

I agree with 1N as it's the best description of my hand.

[Edmunte1]

1) I would have passed (with ♥A instead of ♥K i would have bid 5♦ showing the possibility of playing 6♦ or 5NT ). Without ♥A I need a too much better hand from partener to make 6♦

2) I agree with 1NT, 2♦ should show an unbalanced hand (1435, 1444)

[Fluffy]

I would pass for what Ben said, lack of 10s and 9s.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi

 

1) pass, you have a nice hand, but sometimes

you also need the power

2) I agree, but it is not worth much, I am quite old fashioned

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[han]

Definitely agree with 1NT as opposed to 1D.

 

I pass now. Yes, this is a suitable minimum but I don't think it is an exceptional minimum.

[BebopKid]

I'd pass. Partner has dancing shoes on, but mine are at the cleaners, so I'm not going to the dance.

[whereagles]

Depends on who pard bids. Since 99% of pards overbid on good hands, I think pass is a no-brainer :P

[mike777]

Imps, you hold Ax Kxxx xxx KQxx. You open 1C, partner bids 1D, and you bid 1H (this is your style, I don't care what you think of this style). Partner bids 1S, natural 1 round force. You bid 1N. Partner bids 4N.

 

1) What do you bid?

2) Do you agree with 1N rather than 2D?

I thought I read somewhere this week that some guy, Bart Bramley??, not sure who he is, suggests rebidding nt.

 

I think he said something along the lines of bid notrump as soon as possible on a balanced hand, especially with short honors. Investigation of suit contracts is on a firmer footing when partner knows my hand-type, both when he rebids notrump and when he does not.

 

p=p=1c=p

1h=??

 

9743....AKJ...Q7...A642

[Sambolino]

6d might be a winner; assume pard can bid 2d instead of 4n to hear further about dist. but the problem is that even after 3d he still has no clue whether i hold 3433 or 2432; no problem with that playing 4 card majors.

[mikeh]

I pass, and agree with 1N.

 

An important reason for the pass is that I only hold one working card in partner's suits..

 

I am assuming that we had ways to better describe distributional strong hands as responder, so I'm tending to think in terms of KQxx Qx AKQJx Jx as protoypical for his sequence....

 

So a minimum such as Ax K109x xxx KQ10x would be slam suitable..

 

If he is semi-balanced, he will need some tricks from my suits...even tho his hand will take the majority of the tricks.. and he will have shortness...so I can't count on him having the missing interior cards I need.

 

Sorry: a long-winded way of echoing the earlier posts :P

[Guest Jlall]

Imps, you hold Ax Kxxx xxx KQxx. You open 1C, partner bids 1D, and you bid 1H (this is your style, I don't care what you think of this style). Partner bids 1S, natural 1 round force. You bid 1N. Partner bids 4N.

 

1) What do you bid?

2) Do you agree with 1N rather than 2D?

I thought I read somewhere this week that some guy, Bart Bramley??, not sure who he is, suggests rebidding nt.

 

I think he said something along the lines of bid notrump as soon as possible on a balanced hand, especially with short honors. Investigation of suit contracts is on a firmer footing when partner knows my hand-type, both when he rebids notrump and when he does not.

 

p=p=1c=p

1h=??

 

9743....AKJ...Q7...A642

mike dont spam my threads with this garbage, I said I don't care what you feel about the choice to rebid 1H. That is our system. It was actually bart bramley who rebid 1H so thats what makes this so funny.

[mike777]

spam? I said nothing about the 1h bid, I just said I agree with your rebid 1nt and added some comments that Bart said about rebidding 1nt, was that spam?

 

Yes I thought it was funny, since Bart just wrote this, sorry my humor pissed you off but I thought it was a very valid point. :P

[skjaeran]

Agree 100% with 1NT.

Clear pass now.

[awm]

Pass... is this really a "slam suitable" minimum? I'd much rather have the kings and queens in partner's suit and aces elsewhere. Say something like:

 

Kx xxxx KJx AJxx

 

This is a "worse" hand by some measures, but the cards are all working and I'd feel compelled to try for 6♦. On the actual hand it's easy to imagine some of those kings and queens turning out worthless opposite shortness.

[Guest Jlall]

Partners hand was Kxxx Ax AKxxx Ax.

[Edmunte1]

8 controls and 5th diamond. Really amazing. I think partner shouldn't jump in 4NT. A 2♣ relay, looking for 3 card fit in diamonds (just 50% chance after 1nt :) would have been better

[Guest Jlall]

I would suspect that 5422 is by far the most likely shape on this auction, though it's not a lock obviously.

[inquiry]

Partners hand was Kxxx Ax AKxxx Ax.

Wow... nice responder hand. 18 hcp, 8 controls, 38 ZAR points and your partner opened without 4♠. ZAR rules would say your partner needs at least 26 ZAR points in that case... and zar count is 26+38 = 64 ZAR points (62 needed for slam). This would suggest that 4NT was a "zar-underbid". Of course few use ZAR but at least he suggest that 4NT is an unbid.

 

What about openers hand. HE had 12 hcp, 4 controls, and 10 distributional ZAR points.. an absolute, total ZAR minimum opening bid of 26 ZAR points (zar advocates 25 as minimum when holding 4+spades). So from a zar perspective opener has a clear pass of the invite and responder is too strong to simply invite slam.

 

I find it hard to think Opener can be held responsible for passing this hand, but rather think the question is should responder just bid 6NT over 1NT, or investigate if 6♦ is a better contract. And in the second case, how.

[cherdano]

I agree, Bart Bramley should read up about Zar points, or Justin should try to find a decent partner if he doesn't do his homework.

[han]

I actually agree with Ben that this is a very nice 18-count. If partner does have a 2-4-3-4 distribution then I think it makes sense to bid slam, while if partner is 3-4-2-4 then slam does not look nearly as good. I imagine that it was possible to find out if this was the case.

 

Of course responder could say that opener knew about his 4-2-5-2 shape (which is probably true) but opener didn't know that responder had such a prime suit-oriented hand. I really don't think that opener should act over 4NT.

[inquiry]

I agree, Bart Bramley should read up about Zar points, or Justin should try to find a decent partner if he doesn't do his homework.

Not that it matters, but Justin suggested it was Bart Bramley who held the opener's hand. In that case, he bid exactly what ZAR points would suggest he bid over the leap to 4NT. Pass is also what essentially everyone in this thread is bidding. To be honest, with openers hand, I can't see any other decision but pass of 4NT.

 

On the otherhand, we don't know who held responder hand. Maybe Justin, as he played with Bart Bramley in the Cavendish. Maybe this was a cavendish hand. Or maybe Bart Bramley's partner wasn't justin. Justin suggested that rebidding 1♥ on this hand was "your style" in one post and "our system" in another suggesting that he was a participant on this auction, but I don't think he has said for sure.

 

No one has to bone up on ZAR points, and I could care less if anyone plays them. I just point out for people that might use them that they support the supports the view that 1) opener has a clear pass of 4NT jump, and 2) the slam was missed because of a "zar-underevaluation" by responder.

 

I suspect that if this was justin-bart, then it was Justin "who should read up on Zar points" not Bart. But then, this is a question of evaluation. Did opener underevaluate his "slam suitable minimum" or did Responder underevaluate his "slam forcing minimum". Of the two, I know where I would point the finger, regardless of who the players are. We all make mistakes (not that anyone made one here), even Justin and Bart (if this was them).

[Guest Jlall]

Right, I was responder (this was online). I do not think forcing to slam was reasonable without a fit (doesn't zar downgrade without a fit?). Just construct some hands where partner has 2425 or 3424 and slam is not very good. I agree I have a slam force opposite 3 diamonds.

[inquiry]

Right, I was responder (this was online). I do not think forcing to slam was reasonable without a fit (doesn't zar downgrade without a fit?). Just construct some hands where partner has 2425 or 3424 and slam is not very good. I agree I have a slam force opposite 3 diamonds.

Zar does downgrade opposite misfits by subtracting what he calls misfit points (BTW, he adds misfit points when there is a fit!!!). If partner was 3424 and you are 4252 there are a lot of misfit points. 1 in spades, 2 in hearts, 3 in diamonds, 2 in clubs. I use the M2 method, the sum of the two largest differences. In this case, 2+3, which comes to 5. So opposite these patterns, ZAR suggest subtracting 5 ZAR misfit points, or 64-5 = 59 (62 needed for slam). Can 1 diamond make the equivalent to a king plus a jack difference? This is a fuzzy area with ZAR points, that seems a bit heavy, but the slam goes from a pretty good chance needing 3-2 diamonds, to needing a 3-3 diamond split plus some squeeze possibility (club-spade, or the like) opposite a doubleton diamond by just moving a diamond to a spade. Maybe Zar is onto something, the removal of one diamond makes a huge difference.

 

Not only subtract misfit points with no 8 card fit, only add misfit points with at least a nine card fit. You will always have at least one 7 card fit.